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Author Topic: Use Ethanol to extend vehicle life Back to Topics
Hannie59

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Message Posted: Feb 6, 2013 8:04:47 AM

Run a vehicle on from day one pure gas, you'll do your engine in sooner.

Run it on widely available E-10 and you will get more miles out of your engine and fuel system. It will be cleaner and last longer because gasoline is much more corrosive that ethanol. Cars are lasting longer than ever these days on 10% ethanol fuel.

Use E-15 and make extend these benefits even further for even longer engine life. You have reduced the corrosivity of gasoline even further :)

[Edited by: Hannie59 at 2/6/2013 8:05:31 AM EST]
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Banjoe
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Message Posted: May 6, 2013 8:11:59 AM

The argument over the source of the water is pointless unless there's a need to just argue about something.

Gas line freeze ups are quite real and, thank goodness, have disappeared with our use of E10 fuel. I don't have to buy those little bottles of alcohol to keep my fuel system free & clear of icing.
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rumbleseat
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Message Posted: May 6, 2013 2:09:55 AM

" But how much are we really talking in a sealed system?"

Unless that seal keeps air from getting in, which, of course would cause the tank to collapse, then moisture gets in with the air (except maybe in the middle of the Sahara).
Is it a lot of water? Nope. Does it mix well with E0? Nope. Does it take a lot to cause a problem if the car is parked outside and there is a temperature drop? Nope.
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tdioiler
All-Star Author Detroit

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Message Posted: May 5, 2013 10:25:00 PM

Soylent, Agreed on the condensation. But how much are we really talking in a sealed system? Not enough to freeze gas lines. And when the car goes in motion, the agitation will push most back out into combustion.

Again, only the older cars will have a problem as those systems are not really closed.

So the next question; how much moisture can an ICE handle when higher mixes of ethanol are used?
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SoylentGrain
All-Star Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Apr 30, 2013 8:39:16 AM

"High ambient humidity would be equated to the jungle during rain season for 2 months or more. I don't think any of us should have that problem."

When conditions occur that produce dew, the potential exists for water to condense on any other surface, fuel tanks included.
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rumbleseat
Champion Author Winnipeg

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Message Posted: Apr 30, 2013 1:26:33 AM

Seems somebody has never heard of CONDENSATION. Unless your tank is filled completely, and stays filled completely, there is air in the tank. Air has moisture. Temperature changes make for CONDENSATION and voila! there is moisture in the tank.
Gasoline only needs to change temperature by 7C to have moisture created.
Eliminate moisture in gas tank
Tips for reducing moisture


[Edited by: rumbleseat at 4/30/2013 1:27:55 AM EST]
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tdioiler
All-Star Author Detroit

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Message Posted: Apr 29, 2013 11:47:53 PM

Longjohn is correct on many counts. So stop with the fuel line freezing BS. Unless a) your fuel system leaks b) the filling station has a leak at the filling hose or c) The underground tank is leaking, you should not have line freeze. So the concept that ethanol is the only reason gas lines don't freeze... BS.

High ambient humidity would be equated to the jungle during rain season for 2 months or more. I don't think any of us should have that problem.

Now I wish I could find straight gas in Michigan. Hard to find around me unless I want premium fuel. But I would think thats a waste of money and might do more harm.

But this constant 'Tim the toolman' mentality of something good will be better if we add more... BS there too. Isn't 'too much of a good thing' also work in reverse? Heck, let's have more gov't controls because a little is good so a ton would be great! Ha!
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longjohn119
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Message Posted: Apr 27, 2013 8:57:37 PM

Humidity is completely irrelevant in all modern autos because the fuel system is sealed ... If it's not sealed it's illegal

My Dad owned one of the original 10 stations in Iowa (And hence the US) to sell 10% ethanol blend and I've used nothing but for over 30 years and a few millions miles ... Other than a few plugged fuel filters back when Ronnie Reagan first took office I have never had an ethanol related failure and I drive the tires off of every vehicle I own, drive them "'til they don't go no more"

That being said I wouldn't use ethanol blend in any Marine or small (lawnmower, snowblower) motor, especially Marine use. Two stroke boat motors get straight gas only. Oddly in Iowa the home of ethanol I have absolutely no problem getting straight gas, in fact both stations 2 blocks up the street carry it while I hear all these horror stories where you can't get anything but ethanol. They tried to pass a law like that in Iowa 20-25 years ago and even the farmers opposed it so that was the end of that.

I think ethanol is great in it's place (Consumer autos) but we should have a choice, if you want to pay 5-10 cents more per gallon (Actually you are paying a 5-10 cent per gallon TAX you don't pay with ethanol) that's fine by me ....

[Edited by: longjohn119 at 4/27/2013 9:00:16 PM EST]
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SilverStreaker
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Apr 27, 2013 4:37:42 PM

tdioiler asks "How humid can it really get on an average day in Minnesota?"
Ever hear of the "Land of 10,000 lakes"?
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tdioiler
All-Star Author Detroit

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Message Posted: Apr 27, 2013 4:27:25 PM

SilverStreaker, How humid can it really get on an average day in Minnesota? Are you living part time in FL, TX, MS or LA ?
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EvergreenON
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Message Posted: Apr 27, 2013 8:34:17 AM

This is not true for all cars
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Banjoe
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Message Posted: Apr 26, 2013 10:43:31 PM

Good point rumbleseat. I recall adding alcohol every winter to keep the gas line from freezing up. Haven't had to do that since we started using Efuels and I'm thankful.

As far as not being as smart as a 5th grader, I only wish that I could claim to be that bright.
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SilverStreaker
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Apr 25, 2013 11:49:29 PM

tdioiler claims "the intent isn't to control moisture, but it does happen. Too much ambient moisture can cause a few problems until the engine has drawn out the fuel and moisture."
Why don't you show some calculations or case studies or anything to support this. For example, what kind of humidity would you need to cause issues? I have never had any moisture problems and I have used 0 - 70% ethanol ranges. I've filled up during all kinds of humid weather.

and
"But all those other parts of the system, how many were harmed due to ethanol? Enough that the EPA, who legislated their use, would have to worry when the systems fail due to there own rule."
I have also had no performance or maintenance issues using ethanol blends for the past decade. When should I expect to see these alleged issues?
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tdioiler
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Message Posted: Apr 25, 2013 9:00:18 PM

Good explanation from borsht on the gas venting system. But one correction. Most systems (since the last 7-10 years) have gone away from the venting cap while the engine is running. The caps, if venting still, have a higher threshold to release since fuel changes in volume by temperature. So when the car isn't running there is less likely hood the cap will open.

And the carbon in the canisters have been supplemented with clay. Your right the intent isn't to control moisture, but it does happen. Too much ambient moisture can cause a few problems until the engine has drawn out the fuel and moisture.

But all those other parts of the system, how many were harmed due to ethanol? Enough that the EPA, who legislated their use, would have to worry when the systems fail due to there own rule.

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krzysiek_ck
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Message Posted: Apr 25, 2013 12:12:45 PM

borsht wrote: "It is the gas cap that prevents your tank from imploding, still is and always has been. This allows air and all it contains to enter the gas tank. It is a one way valve, and it is functional when driving, because this is when gasoline is being withdrawn from the tank."

Not in the modern (ODBII) vehicles. Did you ever wonder why it is called "sealed fuel system"?

"Gas cap, which usually contains some type of pressure/vacuum relief valve for venting on older vehicles (pre-OBD II), but is sealed completely (no vents) on newer vehicles (1996 & newer). NOTE: If you are replacing a gas cap, it MUST be the same type as the original (vented or nonvented)."

EVAP Evaporative Emission Control System

Also,

"Under other conditions, as fuel is drawn from the tank, a vacuum can be created in the tank causing it to collapse. This is prevented by allowing atmospheric pressure to enter the tank though check valve #3 in the charcoal canister or the fuel tank cap check valve."

Emission Sub Systems - Evaporative Emission Control System

borsht wrote: "Even if your theory that the canister was bi-directional, it would not stop water vapor from entering the tank. Last I checked activated charcoal does not absorb water."

I believe we were discussing moisture in the air. I suggest you check again.

borsht wrote: "I said a “lot of people”. I did not make a personal reference."

You and I know perfectly fine what you meant.
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borsht
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Message Posted: Apr 25, 2013 11:21:06 AM

Hello krzysiek_ck Re: Preventing a gas tank from collapsing, and how moisture can get into the gas tank.
I guess I didn’t realize you were the 5th grader. I said a “lot of people”. I did not make a personal reference. But if the shoes fits, you can wear them, But you did make it personal.
Albert Einstein said “Everyone is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb trees it will think it is stupid its whole life.” Einstein's quote suggests to us to think twice before measuring ourselves (and others) against inappropriate standards. I work with a lot of 5th graders and they impress me considerably. I do not wish to insult them.
And I really don’t desire to insult you. So, lighten up a little. Hopefully these boards can be factual and informative.
It is the gas cap that prevents your tank from imploding, still is and always has been. This allows air and all it contains to enter the gas tank. It is a one way valve, and it is functional when driving, because this is when gasoline is being withdrawn from the tank.
Even if your theory that the canister was bi-directional, it would not stop water vapor from entering the tank. Last I checked activated charcoal does not absorb water.
The point was how is water entering into the gas tank.
Here is how a Vented Gas Cap Functions:
• The vented gas cap is designed to vent small amounts of air into the car gas tank . The vented gas cap has a one-way release valve that is pressure-activated. When the pressure reaches a certain point (defined by so many pounds per square inch) the valve opens by a very small amount, relieving some of the pressure difference. In this case, the pressure is formed on the outside of the tank, due to the vacuum formed from the displacement of fuel on the inside. After the pressure inside the line equalizes, the pressure valve closes. The valve is set to balance the pressure with the surrounding atmosphere. Air is allowed in, but no fumes are allowed out of the gas cap, because of environmental concerns.
• The vented gas cap has a chamber under the plastic cap handle that inserts into the fuel fill line. The cap screws shut, and this chamber fits relatively close inside the intake tube of the fuel line running to the tank. On each side of the chamber are small openings where air is able to enter. These chambers lead to the pressure valve, which, as the level in the tank decreases, allows air inside to remove any possibility of a vacuum forming.

Here is how the vacuum canister works. The canister system is designed to store the gas vapors until the engine is started. Evaporative emissions systems are designed to capture and store gasoline vapor emissions during normal vehicle operation as well as during refueling operations. The system utilizes a sealed fuel tank, an on-board refueling vapor recovery valve (ORVR), a charcoal canister, a purge valve (purge solenoid), and for diagnostic purposes, a canister vent valve. The system is designed to capture vapor emissions pulled from the fuel tank, store them until needed, and then burn them as part of the regular combustion process. Computer control is responsible for when, and how much, fuel vapor is burned during combustion.
• When the vehicle is shut off, there is a pressure imbalance within the fuel tank caused by fuel being siphoned out, but no air being let back in to take up the empty space. The lower pressure in the gas tank promotes a greater rate of evaporation, letting some of the fuel become a gas. Eventually the tank's internal pressure equalizes, at which point the gas leaves the tank through the vent port and goes into the carbon canister. It's trapped there by the properties of the carbon within the canister, keeping it from escaping into the air. When the vehicle's engine starts, the sudden suction created along the intake manifold opens up the purge valve and pulls all the gaseous fuel out of the canister and burns it in the engine. The canister goes unused until the car is turned off again.
This might be helpful.
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rpsag
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Message Posted: Apr 25, 2013 9:06:26 AM

It's too bad that we can't get much of it here in Ontario. Governments only think of making money by using as much gasoline as possible.
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BigHorne1
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Message Posted: Apr 25, 2013 1:40:13 AM

will not use it in my vehicles
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rumbleseat
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Message Posted: Apr 25, 2013 1:37:29 AM

If E10 adds more moisture with each fill, why isn't my tank full of water by now? Why aren't thousands of cars in Manitoba each month going to shops to have fuel tanks cleaned out or replaced because of water? Why is there not so much water in tanks that the ethanol can't hold it, causing tanks to freeze up?
Because the notion that ethanol is filling gas tanks with water with every fill just isn't borne out by our real-world experience.

My whole driving career I have lived in prairie winter country. Over 30 years of that time I have used E10 and never had to have service because of a fuel-related problem.
The only carburetor I ever had to rebuild was in 1979. The float partially disintegrated. 2 years before we had E10, so that was gasoline that did that!
Never had to touch a carburetor after E10, nor have I ever had a problem with fuel injectors on newer cars.

Sorry, there is NOTHING you can say that undoes the real world experience of my family, my friends, my neighbours, the people I used to work with, my clients, everybody in Manitoba I know!
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tdioiler
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Message Posted: Apr 24, 2013 10:55:26 PM

Rumble, icing and moisture issues are related, but saying the lack of fuel line icing is due to no moisture? Because the fact that dri-gas uses the natural state of alcohol to attract water, and burn if off is great. But that works best to lower the average moisture level. But E10 adds more moisture coming at the next fuel refill. That higher average level of moisture doesn't help the older fuel system durability.

And the air entering the fuel system for balance is usually controlled through the vapor canister. Trying to maintain a dry stream of air works great if: a) the rest of the system, including the fill cap, doesn't leak and b) the owner didn't overfill during fueling and push excess fuel into the canister to render it useless for two or more tank cycles.

And BTW - only the broken cars built since 1982 might have any line freeze at all due to the vapor systems controlling moisture even with E0 fuel.
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rumbleseat
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Message Posted: Apr 24, 2013 7:14:56 PM

Remember fuel line icing? Funny how it don't happen now, but were common enough BEFORE introduction of E10 that people had to put gas-line anti-freeze (alcohol!!!!!!) in their gas tanks to absorb the water from condensation and allow it to pass through the fuel system.
Not adding it (alcohol!!!!!!) to the fuel system in winter could cause one's vehicle to stop at the most inconvenient of places, such as on the highway miles out in the boondocks in the middle of night in freezing cold temperatures.
And yet people try to blame ethanol for moisture accumulation in gas tanks. And they expect those of us that have been around a lot longer than gasohol at the pumps to believe it.

[Edited by: rumbleseat at 4/24/2013 7:18:16 PM EST]
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iRevealSecrets
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Message Posted: Apr 24, 2013 5:12:57 PM

Ethanol in fuel has a tendency to absorb water and separate from the gasoline (a process known as phase separation), sinking to the bottom of the gas tank where it quickly degrades and creates gum, varnish and other insoluble debris that can plug fuel flow passages and negatively affect engine performance. When this ethanol/water mixture is pulled into the engine, it creates a lean burn situation that increases combustion chamber temperatures and can lead to engine damage.

Auto and Boat Dealerships and Repair Shops love people that use Ethanol.:)

[Edited by: iRevealSecrets at 4/24/2013 5:14:47 PM EST]
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krzysiek_ck
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Message Posted: Apr 24, 2013 11:28:10 AM

borsht wrote: "A fuel system is designed so as not to exhale gas fumes, it inhales air as you empty the fuel tank. The air contains moisture.
If the fuel system blocked the entrance of air to the fuel system the tank would collapse!"

The charcoal canister, AKA filter, works both ways. If the excessive pressure builds in the gas tank, it gets released FILTERED through the charcoal canister. When there is an excessive vacuum in the gas tank, the charcoal canister allows the FILTERED air to enter the fuel system.

borsht wrote: "Sometime I wonder if a lot of people really are smarter than a fifth grader."

Obviously you are one of the people that is not "smarter than a fifth grader".

[Edited by: krzysiek_ck at 4/24/2013 11:33:10 AM EST]
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borsht
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Message Posted: Apr 24, 2013 11:19:56 AM

krzysiek_ck doesn’t know how moisture enters a sealed fuel system.
He asked “How does moisture enter the sealed fuel system?”

A fuel system is designed so as not to exhale gas fumes, it inhales air as you empty the fuel tank. The air contains moisture.
If the fuel system blocked the entrance of air to the fuel system the tank would collapse!
Sometime I wonder if a lot of people really are smarter than a fifth grader.
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krzysiek_ck
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Message Posted: Apr 7, 2013 10:17:32 AM

Modern vehicles use sealed fuel system. Fuel vapor builds in the fuel tank and is controlled by the evaporative emission control (EVAP) system. Most of the vapor is released to the intake manifold. Excessive pressure is released to atmosphere through the charcoal canister.

How does moisture enter the sealed fuel system?

[Edited by: krzysiek_ck at 4/7/2013 10:19:57 AM EST]
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tdioiler
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Message Posted: Apr 7, 2013 10:09:40 AM

Yes, your modern fuel system works on a pressure sensitive system to reduce vapor escape and limited atmosphere exchange. There are several tanks, filters and hoses, along with pumps, to deal with exposure to gasoline vapors.

Listen closely when you open your gas cap, or leave it partially open for 20 miles. Your ODB (the engine light) will come on for new vehicles. Take it to the dealer and they might sell you something else to tighten your cap.
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Banjoe
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Message Posted: Apr 7, 2013 7:31:56 AM

I haven't noticed our gas tanks being pressurized. Perhaps I was thinking air was being drawn in when the caps are opened to maybe keep fumes from escaping.

Is the idea that they are designed to be pressurized to keep moisture out?
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krzysiek_ck
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Message Posted: Apr 6, 2013 9:39:21 AM

tdioiler wrote: "I would have to say most engines built after 2001 should handle the higher 15%. Earlier vehicles, not such a chance. Usually only 20% will be able to handle that."

My 1994 runs on E35 and my 2000, so far and will go up, runs on E25.

tdioiler wrote: "And does the vehicle drive every day so there would never/shouldn't be a moisture problem?"

Did you ever think about the reason why removing the gas cup creates the "PSSSS" sound? In all my cars the fuel systems are pressurized for a reason. To answer your question, one of my vehicles is not driven daily.
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tdioiler
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Message Posted: Apr 5, 2013 9:16:08 PM

Hi Hannie, I don't think anyone can 'tell' the difference from running various fuel mixes, unless to push it to 60-85 %. Most drivers would only notice some pings and worse fuel mileage.
I would have to say most engines built after 2001 should handle the higher 15%. Earlier vehicles, not such a chance. Usually only 20% will be able to handle that.

Remember that the engine is only part of the package. Many OEM's used different materials in the filler tube, tanks, evap cans and fuel rails. depending on the model and year, you might have one config that degrades quicker in ethanol than gas. Hence the crap shoot. But if have it working with a specific model and year, like your 2006, buy another one!

I would never get a Saab for ethanol has really been hard on those vehicles.

So who mixes your 30%? And does the vehicle drive every day so there would never/shouldn't be a moisture problem?

BTW, just got my Stihl blower back from repairs. There is a little fuel tube that cracks every other year or so. The store told me the over winter storage with ethanol fuel makes these break faster. And that same story was same for most of their product lines. But they only see issues when people use last season's fuel (higher water) and leave the fuel in the unit over winter. But they agree with you and I that 2-stroke units are actually cleaner now than 10 years ago due to ethanol.
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Hannie59
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Message Posted: Apr 5, 2013 3:50:48 PM

tdoiler, I am running 30% on average for the life of the vehicle.. How can you claim with a straight face that any car can tell the difference between 10 and 15%? Virtuallty all cars in the USA run on 10% ethanol and they run longer than they ever have. All this talk of ethanol causing problems is false. It just doesn't cause any harm. To the contrary, ethanol's benefits are clearly proven at these low blends such as 10%, 15%, and even beyond that.

You say I am taking a gamble with my cars. Maybe, but the 2006 I think point proven. The miles just keep racking up! On the 2009, point not proven. Yet. Not enough miles. But, I am well on my way. And many others have also "proven" your information to be made up.

And I will report here if I experience engine damage, seal damage, fuel line, fuel pump etc damage as a result. So far, nothing to report.


[Edited by: Hannie59 at 4/5/2013 3:56:12 PM EST]
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SilverStreaker
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Message Posted: Apr 5, 2013 2:08:05 PM

Julassa, I can run my 2003 Honda CRV on about 30% ethanol and I used to run my 2000 Ford Windstar on 65% ethanol without the light coming on. They ran the same on ethanol blends as on regular gas and I never had a performance or maintenance issue from ethanol.
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Julassa
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Message Posted: Apr 5, 2013 2:01:24 PM

I can't put an entire tank of ethanol in or my "check engine" light comes on. I have, however, put in one gallon of ethanol with regular unleaded gasoline and it runs great! Seems to run smoother than just plain unleaded gas.
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JustBigB
Champion Author British Columbia

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Message Posted: Apr 5, 2013 1:54:58 PM

If ethanol is so good for your vehicle Why are the big auto companies starting to put conditions on their warranties regarding ethanol use?
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krzysiek_ck
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Apr 4, 2013 3:31:31 PM

EvergreenON wrote: "Completely false. I have real problems with my 2009 car and I am not the only one."

Please list all the ethanol related problems you are having with your 2009 car.
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EvergreenON
Champion Author Ontario

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Message Posted: Apr 4, 2013 8:47:55 AM

Completely false. I have real problems with my 2009 car and I am not the only one.
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tdioiler
All-Star Author Detroit

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Message Posted: Apr 3, 2013 10:02:00 PM

Do you know who did those EPA studies you talk about?

Let me give you a clue; NOT the EPA. Their labs are contracted. Who do you think runs one of those labs? Do you need another hint?

And their study only confirmed there wasn't enough proof that ethanol could be "..solely detrimental to metal corrosion."

So, in which of their studies said that vehicles not built for ethanol actually run better and showed no less wear (other than the sludge reduction, which is good if you are ready for it) by using ethanol at 10 - 30%?. I wasn't said at my lab and I want to know the source. For every study you mention to support ethanol use, I can find many more in contradiction.

So I'm getting old but I don't succumb to the cranky part. What I do get upset with are people who make a claim, then blast everyone else who don't agree or have counter experience. What? Your's is better than Mine? What does it matter!?! That shouldn't matter. What does matter is how the difference occurred so a balance can be found. But in these forums there are enough big mouths around (I'm in that crowd too) who will blast first and ignore any different view.

So to suggest the 10% worked, so 15% and up are better? I thought Tim the Toolman was off the air with that kind of thinking!

What I have said many times; not all vehicles will handle ethanol the same. Read your owners manual. There are many thousands of engine/fuel system designs and materials just in the USA alone. And the longevity of vehicles are more to due with other factors like design, materials, etc. So read your OEM manual to see if they recommend greater mixes than 10%. Most do state that for non-FFV engines. My 78 Buick died by 1991. Do I blame ethanol alone? NO. But there were too many similar issues I found in that engine with those being tested with ethanol. So why wouldn't I suspect this 'wonder fuel'?

BTW - here is a clip from a 2009 Hyundai Sonata owners manual:
"Vehicle damage or drivability problems may not be covered by the manufacturer’s warranty if they result from the use of:
1. Gasohol containing more than 10% ethanol.
2. Gasoline or gasohol containing methanol.
3. Leaded fuel or leaded gasohol. "

You had better hope you never have any engine problems. But I'm sure I won't here about that on this forum...ever.

And is the cost of ethanol really still lower today than it was two years ago? I think lower prices and job creation are going bye-bye in the near future. How many more ethanol plants will shut down this year before you understand the problem this industry has created?

So no, I don't believe ethanol will ever really extend a vehicle life by itself. The engine will need to be designed for higher ethanol mixes to really survive daily use of ethanol. So to call gasoline more corrosive than ethanol, I think you've been breathing too many vapors...

Do I think there is a use for ethanol? Yup, big yes there. I'm doing my own research on using ethanol to heat a home boiler. If the price is right for the fuel, I would love to avoid heating oil.
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ggg452
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Message Posted: Apr 3, 2013 10:26:49 AM

corn is for food...not fuel.
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Hannie59
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Message Posted: Apr 3, 2013 8:31:26 AM

tdioiler, I also question your claimed experience when you continue to make claims that have been disproven over and over by truly scientific and real world testing.

In addition to all the EPA's proof on E-15 and its safety, I personally have over 120,000 miles now on a 2006 Hyundai Elantra, non FFV with E-20 to E-50 since the day I drove it off the lot. Only brakes and tires ever replaced. That means the engine and fuel system are humming along just fine on ethanol blends way above what you falsely claim as "damaging." In addition, I have a 2009 Sonata with the same fueling pattern and 60,000 miles now without any problems. You can't scare me with your false claims!

Enough with your lies and scare tactics, please. Let ethanol stand alone on its reduced mileage vs. its lower costs, it's job creating benefits and cleaner much cleaner performance. Compare what is really true. But stop making false claims about it being detrimental to today's vehicles. It's pure BS.

[Edited by: Hannie59 at 4/3/2013 8:36:05 AM EST]
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rumbleseat
Champion Author Winnipeg

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Message Posted: Apr 3, 2013 8:28:31 AM

As I said, I speak from many years of experience, mine, my family's, and a large circle of friends and clients. Nothing anybody says can undo actual experience.
As I have also said, every regular pump in Manitoba is E10, service shops have not had thundering herds of vehicles with fuel related problems. Nothing anybody says can change that fact.
Yard care companies are not having problems with equipment, nothing anybody says can change that fact.
My car experiences a decrease a decrease in mileage if I take a trip West into provinces that don't have E10 in every pump. Nothing anybody says can change that fact.

I have been called a liar more than once, I have been called a paid ethanol shill more than once, I have been accused of having investments in ethanol that I need to promote, I have even been called a paid Big Oil shill, never figured that one out.
It gets tiresome, so I get testy. At my age I have earned the right.
It has been going on for years, basically most of the years I have been posting in forums. You are far from the first, you sure as heck won't be the last, but nothing anybody says can undo what has actually happened in the 33 years I have been using E10 in cars as old as 1974, with not a single fuel related problem.


[Edited by: rumbleseat at 4/3/2013 8:29:12 AM EST]
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Banjoe
Champion Author Winnipeg

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Message Posted: Apr 3, 2013 8:07:06 AM

tdoiler - Not sure what inspired your comment but I continue to acknowledge your experience and appreciate your excellent contributions to this line of discussion.

On the other hand, I don't play the violin but I can spot a fake violinist in a heart beat once they try to play me a tune.
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tdioiler
All-Star Author Detroit

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Message Posted: Apr 2, 2013 9:57:30 PM

Rumbleseat, Sorry you took my observations that contradict your observations as me saying you lied. I never did, but since you brought it up...

Maybe it's a case you don't really listen to contradictions in your visions of splendor. You dismiss other views as lies and slander.

Many others on these forums have disagreed with you and your response is rude, defamatory, but still hilarious that a grown adult cannot carry on a debate without pushing childish outbursts devoid of any truly valuable insight.

Or is it your inner Freud trying to tell you something about what you speak?

And Banjo, I too have 37 years in the automotive industry developing and testing vehicles in the thousands under strict test parameters. My experience is not at the barnyard. It's inside the shops and plants that actually build those vehicles you drive using, in many cases, the wrong fuel.
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Eugenian
Champion Author Oregon

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Message Posted: Apr 2, 2013 8:46:36 PM

Ethanol per se isn't the problem; corn-based boondoggle ethanol is. Make it from switchgrass or algae, and I'm for it.
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borsht
Champion Author Oakland

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Message Posted: Apr 2, 2013 3:14:37 PM

In my previous post I stated E90, It should be E10, sorry for the typo.
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borsht
Champion Author Oakland

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Message Posted: Apr 2, 2013 3:12:52 PM

Husqvarna recommends the use of mid grade E90 on thei small engine devices made in the last 5 years. And recommends draining all fuel when sitting unused during mid seasons.

http://ethanolproducer.com/articles/8528/outdoor-power-equipment-maker-kicks-off-ethanol-awareness-effort
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SilverStreaker
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Apr 2, 2013 11:23:12 AM

giwan says "Gas line freeze up is less then rare"
Yes, thanks to ethanol.
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giwan
Champion Author Michigan

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Message Posted: Apr 2, 2013 11:05:03 AM

Gas line freeze up is less then rare
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krzysiek_ck
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Apr 2, 2013 10:52:22 AM

BigHorne1 wrote: "But if you run it on normal fuel you will get a 1-2mpg bump up on mpg, this is a vehicle that is made to run on E-85, this should tell you something, get rid of this ethanol blend all together."

Since there are vehicles that do not display the loss of mileage using E10 comparing to E0 and at the same time E0 is more expensive, let's get rid of E0 all together.
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BigHorne1
Champion Author Missouri

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Message Posted: Apr 2, 2013 10:46:37 AM

This is a fact, if you buy a new vehicle that will run on E-85, the sticker on the window, will tell you that the vehicle will get worse mpg, if you run it on this blend...

But if you run it on normal fuel you will get a 1-2mpg bump up on mpg, this is a vehicle that is made to run on E-85, this should tell you something, get rid of this ethanol blend all together.
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krzysiek_ck
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Apr 2, 2013 8:13:10 AM

tdioiler wrote: "Rumbleseat, I just checked this entire thread and found you didn't add one link to prove anything. But you repeat the same blather that I and others have the exact opposite reaction to."

I'm still waiting for you to prove few things on your own. Where are your links?

[Edited by: krzysiek_ck at 4/2/2013 8:15:45 AM EST]
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Banjoe
Champion Author Winnipeg

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Message Posted: Apr 2, 2013 7:52:15 AM

rumbleseat - reality and fact seem to be two entirely different worlds for some folk. It's pretty clear that any reference to a published list of opinion is much more valid than decades of real-life experience.

I'm not sure if there is a growing lack of critical thinking, increasing mental laziness that doesn't allow the juggling of more than one thought at a time, or the development of quick answers to withstand information overload. Whatever the case, it's pretty clear that the process is becoming 'shoot the messenger, I already have the answer and now he's trying to make me think new thoughts'.

Hopefully you will find some humor in what's going on while you're banging your head on this particular discussion wall.
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rumbleseat
Champion Author Winnipeg

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Message Posted: Apr 2, 2013 5:23:26 AM

What, td, you think there is a link to my car to prove to you that I get WORSE mileage with E0 than E10? I guess I could create a fake web page to give a link, would that make you happy?
Or do you just prefer to infer I am a liar?
Do you think there is a link to my old car to prove to you that my mileage went up slightly? Are you going to infer I lie about that as well?

Over the years, in various threads, I have posted many links, people like you either disparage them or ignore them.
And in the 1980s, I knew many people besides myself that used E10. None of us had problems related to fuel other than the odd person who had a clogged fuel filter.
I guess you could infer I am a liar on that one as well.
None of my friends, and nobody in my family has had damage due to use of E10.
We haven't had a rash of engine problems in the years since E10 was put into every regular pump in the province. We haven't had lawn care people complaining of problems with their chains saws and mowers, we haven't had snowmobilers complaining of problems with their sleds, we haven't had a rash of snowblower breakdowns because of E10.
I guess you could infer I lie about that as well, but it is fact.

Over the years, in many threads, I have posted many links, starting with a long time before you joined. I could post them all again, but what is the point? In a couple of years it will just start up again with somebody else inferring I am a liar, or people calling me an ethanol shill again, paid to come into the forums (yes, that has happened), and demanding links while saying "I don't have to give you squat".
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