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Author Topic: GM 0ffers 21 models that run on E-0 to E-85 and any ratio of ethanol in between Back to Topics
Hannie59

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Message Posted: Feb 3, 2013 5:20:48 PM

Check out these awesome GM FFVs for the 2013 model year!

It's nice to have fuel choices!

GM vehicles for 2013 that run on any fuel mixture you want!
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Hannie59
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Message Posted: Feb 11, 2013 8:30:18 PM

Thanks krzysiek_ck ... sorry have been having trouble getting links to work.
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krzysiek_ck
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Message Posted: Feb 11, 2013 8:14:51 PM

Shockjock1961 wrote: "I don't insist that gasoline be used"

You constantly whine when it is not used. What changed?

Shockjock1961 wrote: "eliminate the cold starting problem"

The article you have mentioned below (and quoted), yet failed to provide a link to, states that the issue was resolved with a programming change. Yet you continue to lie about it. Why is that?

[Edited by: krzysiek_ck at 2/11/2013 8:19:32 PM EST]
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SilverStreaker
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Message Posted: Feb 11, 2013 5:12:23 PM

"I don't insist that gasoline be used"
Your continuous defense of it proves otherwise.

"just point out that it's the most convenient"
You haven't proved this.

"and cost effective method to denature alcohol"
Not according to the latest numbers below, even with prices by the drum.

"AND eliminate the cold starting problem"
You haven't proved this either.

"as Hannie himself has correctly pointed out"
You are the master of misquoting, but exactly what part of your sentence are you claiming that Hannie has stated?
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Shockjock1961
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Message Posted: Feb 11, 2013 3:03:35 PM

I don't insist that gasoline be used, just point out that it's the most convenient and cost effective method to denature alcohol AND eliminate the cold starting problem (as Hannie himself has correctly pointed out)...
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SilverStreaker
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Message Posted: Feb 11, 2013 2:59:43 PM

Shocky, I don't need to do any more of your work. I've already proven that there is another (and less expensive) alternative to gasoline. Your vehement insistence that gasoline be used is just further proof of being a big oil shill.
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Shockjock1961
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Message Posted: Feb 11, 2013 2:49:22 PM

"Everyone (well maybe not you) knows that you would be able to buy it for substantially less with a long term contract buying by the tanker"

Well, when you can reference that cheaper price, please post it...
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SilverStreaker
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Message Posted: Feb 11, 2013 2:47:34 PM

Shocky says "$100/gallon. Still seems pretty expensive, especially when gasoline costs $4/gallon or less..."
Thats $100/gallon from a quick internet search for anyone to buy a drum of pyridine. Everyone (well maybe not you) knows that you would be able to buy it for substantially less with a long term contract buying by the tanker. However, they put 30 times as much gasoline in to "denature" alcohol than is needed with pyridine, so even you have to admit that buying pyridine by the drum would cost less than gasoline.

So now do you admit that we are forced to buy gasoline?
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Shockjock1961
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Message Posted: Feb 11, 2013 2:46:57 PM

"And why, again, do you lie?"

What exactly have I lied about?
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Shockjock1961
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Message Posted: Feb 11, 2013 2:45:58 PM

"Cold start is not an issue at all with E-85"

Exactly! Because they put in gasoline to eleiminate that cold starting problem...

"Why are you referencing E-100 Shockjock?"

You need to keep up Hannie. I'm not the one "referencing" E-100. SS is...

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krzysiek_ck
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Message Posted: Feb 11, 2013 2:26:26 PM

Shockjock1961 wrote: "Pardon me. I was in error."

Finally something close to truth from Shockjock1961. While quoting an article he/she left out the other parts, of course.

"In April 2007, GM issued a large voluntary service campaign for 2006 and 2007 FFVs, which were prone to poor cold-start performances due to improper programming in the engine control module. Ford Motor Co. had a similar issue with its Taurus FFVs (see January 2007 EPM Flex Factor). Similar to how carbureted engines were sometimes equipped with a manual choke to create a fuel-rich air-fuel ratio, the engine needs more fuel and less air at start-up to help combat poor cold-starting with ethanol (without an additional fuel tank for gasoline only).

Change2E85, a company that makes aftermarket E85 conversion kits called FFI Platinum, recently announced that its systems will now come equipped with what it calls "Cold Start Technology." According to the company, "Ethanol has a vaporization temperature approximately 56 degrees Fahrenheit. When the outside temperature drops below 56, the FFI Platinum's cold-start feature will turn on but only during the initial starting cycle. It will add extra fuel during the starting cycle to help increase the vaporization potential. The FFI Platinum will resume normal operations after 30 to 40 seconds of engine run time.""

Cold Start 101

[Edited by: krzysiek_ck at 2/11/2013 2:27:21 PM EST]
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Hannie59
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Message Posted: Feb 11, 2013 2:23:40 PM

Cold start is not an issue at all with E-85 or its winter counterpart, E-70. Why are you referencing E-100 Shockjock? And why, again, do you lie? Millions of gallons of E-85 and E=70 is sold, 365 days a year, with no cold start issues at all!


[Edited by: Hannie59 at 2/11/2013 2:25:49 PM EST]
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Shockjock1961
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Message Posted: Feb 11, 2013 2:12:33 PM

Pardon me. I was in error. Cold starting problems don't occur at temperatures of around 53, they start at around 64...

"When the Brazilian government set out in the 1980s to substitute ethanol for gasoline as its national passenger transportation fuel, General Motors Corp. was acutely aware of the low-volatility and cold-start concerns associated with running an engine on pure alcohol.

According to Henrique Pereira with GM Powertrain, this is why the Big Three automaker equipped its Brazilian vehicles with two fuel tanks—one for ethanol or ethanol blends, and the other solely for gasoline to assist with cold starts. While the words "cold" and "Brazil" aren't often found in the same sentence, temperatures below 64 degrees Fahrenheit may cause trouble for an engine starting on alcohol."
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Shockjock1961
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Message Posted: Feb 11, 2013 1:59:47 PM

$100/gallon. Still seems pretty expensive, especially when gasoline costs $4/gallon or less...

"Cold starting is a diversion tactic that you are trying to use. For most of the country, cold starting isn't a problem for most of the year."

With pure ethanol, cold starting problems start at around 53 degrees F. Most of the country gets below that temperature on a regular basis. Adding gasoline seems a whole lot easier then having to modifiy cars to accomodate heaters for the fuel. Seems like the auto manufactureres agree, otherwise they would be producing cars with heaters in them...

[Edited by: Shockjock1961 at 2/11/2013 2:02:43 PM EST]
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SilverStreaker
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Message Posted: Feb 11, 2013 1:43:40 PM

"Since i was unable to find a bulk price, I figured in a large discount for bulk sales."
I see, you don't think it is a lie to provide information that you made up. It's up to you to prove your claims, but in less than a minute of searching, I was able to find Spectrum Chemicals selling pyridine for $5,328.55 per 55 gallon drum. You would be able to buy it for substantially less than that by the tanker full on a regular basis.

Cold starting is a diversion tactic that you are trying to use. For most of the country, cold starting isn't a problem for most of the year. For the parts of the country that it may pose a problem, there are other ways to get around it besides gasoline, like heaters, etc.

So now do you admit that we are forced to buy gasoline, since it's not the only thing that could be used to denature ethanol and "cold starting" only occurs during parts of the year for parts of the US? You still haven't answered.
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Shockjock1961
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Message Posted: Feb 11, 2013 8:58:57 AM

"So, I guess that's just another of your lies?"

Nope, it goes for about $300/liter wholesale. Since i was unable to find a bulk price, I figured in a large discount for bulk sales.

If you have any better figures, please provide them.

You still haven't addressed the issue of cold starting...
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SilverStreaker
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Message Posted: Feb 10, 2013 9:17:39 PM

Shocky claimed that "Pyridine priced at around $400/gallon".

So, I guess that's just another of your lies? I found bulk prices ($55 gallon drums) with a simple search for a fraction of what you claim.
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Shockjock1961
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Message Posted: Feb 10, 2013 9:01:23 PM

If you can find a company that will provide a bulk price, feel free to post it. Personally, I know of no one who sells it in such quantities, which is probably another reason tatt it's not used...

You have yet to address the issue about whether or not pyridine helps with cold weather starting....
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SilverStreaker
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Message Posted: Feb 10, 2013 7:50:04 PM

Shocky claims that "Pyridine priced at around $400/gallon".

Prove it showing a bulk (tanker) price.
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skh150
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Message Posted: Feb 10, 2013 6:35:18 PM

Ok!
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Shockjock1961
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Message Posted: Feb 10, 2013 9:49:29 AM

With Pyridine priced at around $400/gallon you are going to add $2 to every gallon of ethanol you sell.

Does pyridine help with cold weather starting?
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SilverStreaker
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Message Posted: Feb 9, 2013 10:21:24 PM

Shocky asks "So what alternative would you recommend?"
Pyridine is used to make denatured alcohol unsuitable for drinking. Only a half percent by volume is needed.
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Shockjock1961
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Message Posted: Feb 9, 2013 7:00:13 PM

"What is your point"

My Point? This:

Gasoline is a natural choice to add to ethanol since you can't drink it, it's realtively inexpensive and cars are already designed to use it.

So what alternative would you recommend?

"Brazil does not import any oil"

Brazil uses a small fraction of the enrgy we use for transportation...

So whats YOUR point?
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krzysiek_ck
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Message Posted: Feb 9, 2013 11:16:25 AM

Shockjock1961 wrote: "Gasoline is a natural choice since you can't drink it, it's realtively inexpensive and cars are already designed to use it."

"realtively inexpensive" another Big Oil Shill propaganda piece.
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krzysiek_ck
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Message Posted: Feb 9, 2013 11:14:14 AM

Hannie59 wrote: "Brazil does not import any oil."

That is why Shockjock1961 is against Brazil as well.
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Hannie59
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Message Posted: Feb 9, 2013 10:11:21 AM

All fuel labeled "Gasolina" is E-25 in brazil shockjock. All fuel for all cars, even their non FFVs, which are not common. And they have the same parts as the non FFVs here!

And the ethanol can go up to E-98. And ALMOST ALL cars there can use it. What is your point with THAT sheesh?

Brazil does not import any oil.

[Edited by: Hannie59 at 2/9/2013 10:15:30 AM EST]
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Shockjock1961
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Message Posted: Feb 9, 2013 10:08:34 AM

Even Brazil (since you used that as an example) uses gasoline in conjunction with ethanol...
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Shockjock1961
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Message Posted: Feb 9, 2013 10:07:27 AM

Gasoline is a natural choice since you can't drink it, it's realtively inexpensive and cars are already designed to use it.

What alternative would you recommend?
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SilverStreaker
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Message Posted: Feb 9, 2013 9:58:07 AM

Shocky, so now you admit that we are forced to buy gasoline, since it's not the only thing that could be used to denature ethanol and "cold starting" only occurs during parts of the year for parts of the US?
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Shockjock1961
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Message Posted: Feb 9, 2013 9:47:35 AM

So now you admit that you are not forced to buy gasoline, since it's the intrinsic properties of ethanol that require the addition?
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Hannie59
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Message Posted: Feb 9, 2013 9:08:06 AM

Yep, E-70 is the best fuel available in the winter. And fortunately for most of the year we can get it up to E-85 for even cleaner burns and cleaner engine blocks free of performance robbing tar caused by gasolines. Thank you GM for leading the way for Americans with true fuel choices!



[Edited by: Hannie59 at 2/9/2013 9:11:20 AM EST]
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Shockjock1961
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Message Posted: Feb 9, 2013 1:20:50 AM

"High ethanol blends present a problem to achieve enough vapor pressure for the fuel to evaporate and spark the ignition during cold weather (since ethanol tends to increase fuel enthalpy of vaporization). When vapor pressure is below 45 kPa starting a cold engine becomes difficult. In order to avoid this problem at temperatures below 11 °C (52 °F)), and to reduce ethanol higher emissions during cold weather, both the US and the European markets adopted E85 as the maximum blend to be used in their flexible fuel vehicles, and they are optimized to run at such a blend. At places with harsh cold weather, the ethanol blend in the US has a seasonal reduction to E70 for these very cold regions"
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Shockjock1961
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Message Posted: Feb 9, 2013 1:09:24 AM

Gasoline is added to ethanol to denature it, and to minimize problems with cold weather starting. Cold start issues are why you will find E85 is more like E70 in the winter time...
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SilverStreaker
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Message Posted: Feb 8, 2013 9:00:05 PM

Shockjock1961 says "That's due to ATF regulations"
At least you admit that there is a federal regulation for gasoline in ethanol.

"the intrinsic properties of alcohol and market forces"
What spin! The reality is that the government bowed to the oil industry. There is no reason that gasoline must be added to alcohol in order for it to be used as a fuel. Brazil doesn't.
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Shockjock1961
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Message Posted: Feb 8, 2013 3:33:25 PM

What is truly messed up is that the government is so much under the control of the ACE that they mandate that a fuel that is, for all practical purposes, non-existent MUST be used and they fine oil companies yearly for NOT using it....





[Edited by: Shockjock1961 at 2/8/2013 3:34:51 PM EST]
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Shockjock1961
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Message Posted: Feb 8, 2013 3:30:08 PM

"Do you have dyslexia or something"

Not at all. Perhaps you have a reading comprehension problem, or is it simply you don't understand what a simple word like "mandate" means?
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Shockjock1961
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Message Posted: Feb 8, 2013 3:29:07 PM

"You claim you are forced to use ethanol."

Yep the Federal goverment MANDATES the use of it, which is why I can't buy gasoline without it...

"Yet, I can get ethanol free gasoline anywhere"

You may, I can't...

"You claim I am NOT forced to use gasoline"

That's correct there is no Federal mandate forcing the use of gasoline...

"yet I CANNOT buy gasoline free ethanol anywhere"

That's due to ATF regulations, the intrinsic properties of alcohol and market forces. Once again there is no mandate that gasoline be purchased...

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Hannie59
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Message Posted: Feb 8, 2013 3:12:17 PM

OK Shockjock. You need to go to one of those brain exercising websites.

You claim you are forced to use ethanol. Yet, I can get ethanol free gasoline anywhere. You claim I am NOT forced to use gasoline, yet I CANNOT buy gasoline free ethanol anywhere.

Do you have dyslexia or something?

[Edited by: Hannie59 at 2/8/2013 3:13:28 PM EST]
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krzysiek_ck
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Message Posted: Feb 8, 2013 2:43:30 PM

Shockjock1961, I'm still waiting for you to explain why are you whining about being forced to use E10 when "there were other fuels you could use".

Where is your explanation on how you are being "forced" to use E10 when "there were other fuels you could use".
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Shockjock1961
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Message Posted: Feb 8, 2013 2:37:57 PM

I'm still waiting to here how you considered that people were forced to use gasoline Hannie. There was never a Federal mandate to use gasoline, unlike what you see with ethanol. So how were people forced to use gasoline?
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krzysiek_ck
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Message Posted: Feb 7, 2013 8:51:19 PM

Shockjock1961 wrote: "And yet governmnt has no need to mandate it's use, or give it special treatment over other fuels..."

Classic Shockjock1961, first whining about ethanol subsidies, but gasoline subsidies are perfectly fine. 100% pure hypocrite.

Shockjock1961 wrote: "Forced? When was the use of gasoline ever mandated by the government? If you didn't want to use gasoline there were other fuels you could use. Hardly sounds like force to me..."

So why do you whine yourself about being forced to buy E10 while there are other fuels you could use? 100% pure hypocrite.
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Shockjock1961
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Message Posted: Feb 7, 2013 7:07:51 PM

"Gasoline has more flaws as a fuel than ethanol shock"

And yet governmnt has no need to mandate it's use, or give it special treatment over other fuels...

" And for 100 years we have been forced to use it."

Forced? When was the use of gasoline ever mandated by the government? If you didn't want to use gasoline there were other fuels you could use. Hardly sounds like force to me...

Gasoline did command a large portion of the market, but that was because it simply the best and most economical fuel available...



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Hannie59
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Message Posted: Feb 7, 2013 6:53:01 PM

Gasoline has more flaws as a fuel than ethanol shock. And for 100 years we have been forced to use it.
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Shockjock1961
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Message Posted: Feb 7, 2013 6:15:33 PM

"Shockjock. Do you want to see E-85 banned"

Nope, never said anything of the sort. FFV's should, however, be subject to the same C.A.F.E. standards as any other vehicles....

"Explain why so many FFV impalas run on primarily E-85 make it to at least 150,000 to 200,000 miles?"

Probably the same reason any other modern car can make it to at least 150,000 to 200,000 on gasoline...

"Why do you dislike fuel choices"

I never said I did. I do however take exception to being forced to use a certain fuel and preferential treatment to the use of a certain fuel and untrue propaganda pieces being posted about a ceratain fuel.

If ethanol is so great then let it's own merits earn it a spot in the market place. The problem is that is has so many flaws as a fuel that the shills have no recourse but to use snake oil sales tactics to promote it and the use of political pull to force people to use it....
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krzysiek_ck
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Message Posted: Feb 7, 2013 1:55:18 PM

More on Ethyl formate.

"In industry, it is used as a solvent for cellulose nitrate, cellulose acetate, oils, and greases. It can be used as a substitute for acetone;"

Interesting part is that toluene, one of the common chemicals used in gasoline, is much more toxic than acetone. The Big Oil Shills around this forum claim that ethanol is so bad for your engine, but they do not have any issues using Toluene. Why is that?

[Edited by: krzysiek_ck at 2/7/2013 1:58:48 PM EST]
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krzysiek_ck
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Message Posted: Feb 7, 2013 11:44:02 AM

"Formic acid is a natural constituent of many foods. It is a metabolite in normal intermediary metabolism, and is a precursor in the biosynthesis of several body constituents. The tolerance of the body to large amounts is relatively high. For example, 160mg of formic acid per kg of body weight orally was tolerated by rats; men reportedly 8 mg of formic acid per kg per day orally for a period of four weeks; and no adverse effects were reported in rats that received 730mg of sodium formate per kg in their diet for one and a half years."

Ethyl formate
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krzysiek_ck
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Message Posted: Feb 7, 2013 11:40:40 AM

"Ethyl formate is an ester formed when ethanol (an alcohol) reacts with formic acid (a carboxylic acid). It is also known as ethyl methanoate because formic acid is also known as methanoic acid. Ethyl formate has the characteristic smell of rum and is also partially responsible for the flavor of raspberries."

"Ethyl methanoate is generally recognized as safe by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration."

Ethyl formate
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Hannie59
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Message Posted: Feb 7, 2013 11:38:53 AM

Shockjock. Do you want to see E-85 banned?

Shockjock. Why do you try to divert a topic about fuel choices into one about running ethanol in a non FFV? Why do you try to divert every ethanol topic in this forum that is simply positively promoting the options into a false horror story full of lies?

Shockjock. Explain why so many FFV impalas run on primarily E-85 make it to at least 150,000 to 200,000 miles?

Shockjock. Why do you dislike fuel choices? Do you believe there should always be just one option for all?

You are full of it. The only option for oil dependence is choice. We are not going to become a nation of bicyclists whether thats a good thing or not. Diversification of fuel sources, supplies, and options are what needs to happen. EV's, liquid fuels, Hydrogen. Feedstocks from landfills to make liquid and gaseous fuels, bio feedstocks which have improved immensely. All have to be there, one cannot rule solely. THAT'S MY AGENDA.


[Edited by: Hannie59 at 2/7/2013 11:44:34 AM EST]
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Shockjock1961
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Message Posted: Feb 7, 2013 11:17:12 AM

I just got off the phone with a friend of mine who does research and teaches at the SIU Automotive Tech group. He confirms that nitride coatings are used in the engines of FFV's. He was even kind enough to send me a link to a presentation that was done at SIU concerning FFV's...

E85 and FFV's

Take not of the reduced mileage that E85 provides, the harder starting in winter, the corrosive nature of ethanol and the modifications that are made to make a vehicle compatible with E-85...
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Hannie59
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Message Posted: Feb 7, 2013 11:15:30 AM

Blatantly False shockjock Piston Failure? What a load!

The combustion chamber of a vehicle is hot. Period. When engines use ethanol their pistons and rings show less wear.

FFVs and non FFVs have different patrs? What a pile! It has been proven that they are mostly the same. If the coatings are in an ffv then they also eist in the non ffv versions.

Water contamination of fuel? What a crock! That happens with GASOLINE far more than with ethanol!

And this topic is about FFVs, not running ethanol in a non FFV. Don't try to change the topic away to divert attention from fuel choices. I eun it in mune, but don't really recommend it to others. My recommendations are to stop believing liars like yourself, buy an FFV, and use E-85!

Why the constant lying? What the heck is your agenda? It sure isnt the promotion of knowledge.



[Edited by: Hannie59 at 2/7/2013 11:21:20 AM EST]
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Shockjock1961
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Message Posted: Feb 7, 2013 11:02:12 AM

As far as FFV's being identical to non-ffvs's, that is yet another falsehood. I spoke to a Ford mechanic and was told by him that the internal parts of the engine of FFV's have a nitride coating (which non-ffv's don't have) to help reduce wear caused by formic and other organic acids.

Something I found on the web after The mechanics word was questioned by the ethanol shills:

"Engines specifically designed for FFVs employ soft nitride coatings on their internal metal parts to provide formic acid wear resistance"

"Also, the use of lubricant oil (motor oil) containing an acid neutralizer is necessary to prevent the damage of oil-lubricated engine parts in the event of water contamination of fuel"

"Running a non-FFV with too high of a percentage of ethanol will also cause a lean air fuel mixture. A lean mixture, if allowed to persist over considerable periods of time, will cause overheating of pistons and will eventually cause engine damage. It will also cause premature catalytic converter failure."

[Edited by: Shockjock1961 at 2/7/2013 11:03:27 AM EST]
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