Not Logged In Log In   Sign Up   Points Leaders
Follow Us    12:29 AM

Message Forum - Read Message

Category: All Things Ethanol > Topics Add to favorite topics   Post new topicPost New Topic
Author Topic: Why Ethanol is NOT good for your car Back to Topics
Meddig

Rookie Author
Buffalo

Posts:12
Points:1,190
Joined:Jan 2013
Message Posted: Jan 31, 2013 5:42:52 PM

* Not a single engine manufacturer allows for use of over 10% ethanol alcohol in gasoline. *
* Many engine types run best on ethanol-free fuel types *

The rapid push for E15 conventional gas is a foolish plan, which will only benefit (profit) ethanol producers, while causing increased risk of gasoline-caused engine damage, water-contamination and decreased mpg for consumers.

E15 Waiver 2009-10 Background: In April 2009, Growth Energy, ACE -American Coalition for Ethanol, and 54 ethanol producers completed submission of a formal request to the EPA for increase of E10 to E15. Deadline to respond was July 20th,2009. Probably due to lack of public input, the EPA foolishly approved E15 Oct. 2010, and has held back distribution due to several obstacles and legal details:
EPA website states, "As of November 7, 2011, E15 is not registered with EPA and is therefore not legal for distribution or sale as a transportation fuel...There are a number of additional factors including requirements under other federal, state, and local laws that may also affect the distribution of E15. The granting of the partial waivers (see below) is only one of several requirements for registration..."

E15 makes less sense than E10, which has already caused too many unnecessary engine damage and increased gas consumption and cost. Not all gas powered engines are designed for alcohol fuel blends. Both E10 and E15 do nothing to decrease petroleum consumption. E85 makes sense (used only in flex-fuel "green" cars). But sneaking more ethanol into conventional fuel seems unlawful. Damage caused by E15 will not be covered by engine warranties since all manufacturers allow only up to 10% (E10).

When used as a gas or additive (oxygenator) ethanol is subsidized by our state and federal government.
The taxpayer funded support of ethanol (subsidies, tax credits), with concommittant decrease in mpg and efficiency for ethanol blends, (without lower pricing) is just one more slap in the face to your average, strugggling American consumer.

The water-absorbing properties and solvent effects of ethanol (gas contamination & engine breakdown) will once again hit the marine engine and older vehicle owners the hardest, as we've seen with with widespread distribution of E10 in recent years.

*Those organizations and companies who support ethanol seem mainly driven by profit and greed; Those who are against ethanol, often base their arguments on decades of factual and reputable studies that demonstrate alcohol's negative effects to engines and gasoline stability, higher cost of gas for consumers, and unnecessary government-funded ethanol incentives and tax credits.
REPLIES (newest first) Post a Reply
Profile Pic
tdioiler
All-Star Author Detroit

Posts:995
Points:694,025
Joined:Jul 2011
Message Posted: Apr 19, 2013 10:50:22 PM

Because even the Ford Model T ran clean diesel. That was called kerosene back then. And it even had an electric starter too....

Get it ?

Profile Pic
rumbleseat
Champion Author Winnipeg

Posts:25,198
Points:3,825,385
Joined:Oct 2002
Message Posted: Apr 19, 2013 1:42:56 AM

Diesel? And what does that have to do with the discussion about ethanol? This whole thread has been about gasoline/ethanol blends.

What does diesel have to do with an internal combustion engine?
Diesel is a compression ignition engine.
You aren't taking my point to the extreme, you are obfuscating.
Profile Pic
tdioiler
All-Star Author Detroit

Posts:995
Points:694,025
Joined:Jul 2011
Message Posted: Apr 18, 2013 8:43:15 PM

So Rumble, Thick dirty lumpy (in the cold) diesel isn't good either?

So if you clean off the metal of any type of deposit, in you fuel system or inside the combustion chamber, that's a really great idea?

So why waste your money on oil then? That makes everything in the engine sooo dirty!

Just taking your point to the other extreme.
Profile Pic
rumbleseat
Champion Author Winnipeg

Posts:25,198
Points:3,825,385
Joined:Oct 2002
Message Posted: Apr 15, 2013 4:29:20 AM

When did varnish or gummy deposits in the fuel lines and carburetor or injectors become lubricants?
Profile Pic
tdioiler
All-Star Author Detroit

Posts:995
Points:694,025
Joined:Jul 2011
Message Posted: Apr 14, 2013 11:19:02 PM

If ethanol cleans out the gunk inside a ICE, wouldn't that reduce the lubrication so important for engine life?
Profile Pic
minookaband
Champion Author Illinois

Posts:1,553
Points:462,360
Joined:Dec 2012
Message Posted: Apr 1, 2013 12:14:11 AM

please give me a choice!
Profile Pic
cheap_gas73
Rookie Author Quad Cities

Posts:25
Points:7,705
Joined:Apr 2009
Message Posted: Apr 1, 2013 12:08:20 AM

I get it when its cheaper, never any problems.
Profile Pic
tdioiler
All-Star Author Detroit

Posts:995
Points:694,025
Joined:Jul 2011
Message Posted: Mar 31, 2013 1:43:57 PM

I just want the choice of ethanol or not.

What is this, US of Russia???
Profile Pic
tdioiler
All-Star Author Detroit

Posts:995
Points:694,025
Joined:Jul 2011
Message Posted: Mar 31, 2013 1:42:49 PM

Goldseeker, your comments on who funds lobby groups need to include many other groups before big oil.

Try; Lawyers, medical, agro, before 'big oil'.
Profile Pic
BigHorne1
Champion Author Missouri

Posts:3,638
Points:800,005
Joined:Jul 2012
Message Posted: Mar 31, 2013 1:39:54 AM

Even in the new vehicles that can take this, it shows that you get worse mpg, that should be the most important reason, especially in this economy, why use something that will cost you more in the long run.
Profile Pic
Daurel
Veteran Author Indiana

Posts:341
Points:37,310
Joined:Jul 2011
Message Posted: Mar 30, 2013 1:09:08 PM


At 50.000 mm. I will have to adjust the valves on my engine due to the use of ethanol.

If you do NOT have self adjusting lifters IE hydraulic you are WAY past due!
Ethanol did not cause this stupid did.
Profile Pic
EvergreenON
Champion Author Ontario

Posts:2,139
Points:839,205
Joined:Apr 2011
Message Posted: Mar 30, 2013 7:31:37 AM

At 50.000 mm. I will have to adjust the valves on my engine due to the use of ethanol. Nobody can convince me of the usefulness of this product.
Profile Pic
jay93LA
Champion Author New Orleans

Posts:4,909
Points:1,151,970
Joined:Aug 2011
Message Posted: Mar 30, 2013 6:53:06 AM

correct
Profile Pic
goldseeker
Champion Author West Virginia

Posts:22,815
Points:3,276,840
Joined:Sep 2005
Message Posted: Mar 27, 2013 3:19:51 AM

"car manufacturers and government aren't influenced by big oil."

Are you kidding, big oil owns them. Big oil spends more money on lobbying than any other group.
Profile Pic
tdioiler
All-Star Author Detroit

Posts:995
Points:694,025
Joined:Jul 2011
Message Posted: Mar 26, 2013 9:49:00 PM

Silversreak,"You haven't proven that the car manufacturers and government aren't influenced by big oil. "

So what proof do you have? Other than your Mel Gibson act, please provide any proof of what you are saying.

On the other hand, I have worked alongside most of the OEM's and never meet anyone at their offices who spoke of dropping ethanol discussions because their company works with along oil. Actually most talk of alternatives, including batteries.

But just the same thought, people don't like things the gov't shoves up our... No one trust them, so why wouldn't the govt propaganda machine on ethanol be any different?
Profile Pic
Shockjock1961
Champion Author Illinois

Posts:23,521
Points:2,739,715
Joined:Apr 2006
Message Posted: Mar 26, 2013 7:18:01 PM

Pot... Meet Kettle....
Profile Pic
SilverStreaker
Champion Author Twin Cities

Posts:14,039
Points:2,754,585
Joined:Mar 2006
Message Posted: Mar 26, 2013 5:55:31 PM

Shocky, you have no problem asking others to prove your allegations, but you do with the opposite. Thanks for proving this point.
Profile Pic
Shockjock1961
Champion Author Illinois

Posts:23,521
Points:2,739,715
Joined:Apr 2006
Message Posted: Mar 26, 2013 4:34:33 PM

You haven't proven they are, so what's your point?
Profile Pic
SilverStreaker
Champion Author Twin Cities

Posts:14,039
Points:2,754,585
Joined:Mar 2006
Message Posted: Mar 26, 2013 10:45:43 AM

Shockjock says "Car manufacturers and the government says otherwise..."
You haven't proven that the car manufacturers and government aren't influenced by big oil.
Profile Pic
Shockjock1961
Champion Author Illinois

Posts:23,521
Points:2,739,715
Joined:Apr 2006
Message Posted: Mar 26, 2013 9:14:29 AM

"I wish they'd do away with ethanol in the fuel"

Or at the very least, give you a choice on whether you want it diluting your gasoline, or not...
Profile Pic
rumbleseat
Champion Author Winnipeg

Posts:25,198
Points:3,825,385
Joined:Oct 2002
Message Posted: Mar 26, 2013 3:48:53 AM

"What you haven't proven is that you can NOT run a modern engine on ethanol that was not designed for it without adverse consequences..."

1974 Ford
1976 Mercury
1974 Chev
1976 Plymouth
1974 Dodge
None of them were designed for the E10 that was yet to come, yet they all ran perfectly fine, absolutely no adverse consequences, on E10.
Prove it? Our family drove them, I drove them, my wife drove them. We still run every day on E10, we still aren't having ethanol-related problems with our current vehicles.
Profile Pic
x78370
Rookie Author Illinois

Posts:8
Points:330,025
Joined:Oct 2011
Message Posted: Mar 26, 2013 2:33:39 AM

I wish they'd do away with ethanol in the fuel.
Profile Pic
Shockjock1961
Champion Author Illinois

Posts:23,521
Points:2,739,715
Joined:Apr 2006
Message Posted: Mar 25, 2013 8:49:34 AM

"What you haven't proven is that you can NOT run a modern engine on ethanol that was not designed for it without adverse consequences..."

Car manufacturers and the government says otherwise...
Profile Pic
kinger9976433
Rookie Author California

Posts:42
Points:115,100
Joined:Apr 2011
Message Posted: Mar 24, 2013 7:00:13 PM

Acually, to those saying there was no patent on the car... there was a patent on the gasoline powered automobile at the time Ford came on the scene. Back then, one had lease the rights to manufacture automobiles. Ford applied and was denied. He manufactured his cars anyway. He was told he was infringing on patent rights and to pay massive sums in royalties. Whole thing went to court and Ford won.
Profile Pic
SilverStreaker
Champion Author Twin Cities

Posts:14,039
Points:2,754,585
Joined:Mar 2006
Message Posted: Mar 24, 2013 6:49:05 PM

Shocky, What you haven't proven is that you can NOT run a modern engine on ethanol that was not designed for it without adverse consequences...
You made the allegation, you defend it.
Profile Pic
Shockjock1961
Champion Author Illinois

Posts:23,521
Points:2,739,715
Joined:Apr 2006
Message Posted: Mar 24, 2013 5:46:02 PM

"The Model T ran on ethanol or gasoline."

The model T engine was so sloppy it ran on just about anything to include kerosene. I think it's evident you can run a modern engine on ethanol SS. What you haven't proven is that you can run a modern engine on ethanol that was not designed for it without adverse consequences...
Profile Pic
SilverStreaker
Champion Author Twin Cities

Posts:14,039
Points:2,754,585
Joined:Mar 2006
Message Posted: Mar 23, 2013 6:21:41 PM

The Model T ran on ethanol or gasoline. Shocky, thanks for pointing out that the Model T engines, like those of the era had a "fairly primitive design". You've proven my point that it's not rocket science to run a gasoline engine on ethanol.
Profile Pic
Shockjock1961
Champion Author Illinois

Posts:23,521
Points:2,739,715
Joined:Apr 2006
Message Posted: Mar 23, 2013 9:58:55 AM

"So, Shocky, did all these other vehicles also "run poorly", or just the Model T?"

I'm sure, being of a fairly primitive design, they all pretty much ran poorly back then SS..
Profile Pic
goldseeker
Champion Author West Virginia

Posts:22,815
Points:3,276,840
Joined:Sep 2005
Message Posted: Mar 23, 2013 4:44:40 AM

Lies coming from the oil patch can never hide the real truth.
Profile Pic
rumbleseat
Champion Author Winnipeg

Posts:25,198
Points:3,825,385
Joined:Oct 2002
Message Posted: Mar 23, 2013 1:46:21 AM

Shocky, it is still on this page!

Shockjock1961
Message Posted: Feb 23, 2013 8:18:25 AM
"A yes the Model T. Fine example. A 20 Hp engine that got about 16mpg and had to be cranked by hand to start..."
Profile Pic
SilverStreaker
Champion Author Twin Cities

Posts:14,039
Points:2,754,585
Joined:Mar 2006
Message Posted: Mar 22, 2013 7:34:26 PM

borsht claims "Henry Ford had a problem in that the gasoline powered car was patended. He had to have an alternative to get around the patent."
This is pure BS! There were many other gasoline powered cars produced before the Model T, as you can read in the History of the Automobile
So, Shocky, did all these other vehicles also "run poorly", or just the Model T?
Profile Pic
krzysiek_ck
Champion Author Illinois

Posts:8,136
Points:1,285,285
Joined:Apr 2011
Message Posted: Mar 22, 2013 12:21:18 PM

"The fuel of the future, according to both Henry Ford and Charles F. Kettering, was ethyl alcohol made from farm products and cellulosic materials. Ford, of course, is well known as an automotive inventor; Kettering was the head of research at General Motors and a highly respected inventor in his own right."

Henry Ford, Charles Kettering and the Fuel of the Future

"In 1925, Henry Ford tells the New York Times that ethyl alcohol is "the fuel of the future" which “is going to come from fruit like that sumach out by the road, or from apples, weeds, sawdust -- almost anything. There is fuel in every bit of vegetable matter that can be fermented. There's enough alcohol in one year's yield of an acre of potatoes to drive the machinery necessary to cultivate the fields for a hundred years.""

Timeline of alcohol fuel

[Edited by: krzysiek_ck at 3/22/2013 12:26:11 PM EST]
Profile Pic
Shockjock1961
Champion Author Illinois

Posts:23,521
Points:2,739,715
Joined:Apr 2006
Message Posted: Mar 22, 2013 11:24:42 AM

"Actually it is proof you actually think cars were originally invented with starters, electric lights, 200 hp engines"

No it's just proof that I believe that motors a hundred years ago were so sloppy you could use several different types of fuel, and they wouldn't run particularly well on any one of them...

Still not sure what electric starters have to do with the quality of the motor...
Profile Pic
Shockjock1961
Champion Author Illinois

Posts:23,521
Points:2,739,715
Joined:Apr 2006
Message Posted: Mar 22, 2013 11:18:16 AM

"Hey, YOU are the one that brought it up, you tell us?"

I brought up the subject of electric starters? I don't recall that... Care to point out where I did?
Profile Pic
borsht
Champion Author Oakland

Posts:3,147
Points:739,065
Joined:Aug 2012
Message Posted: Mar 22, 2013 11:12:31 AM

Henry Ford had a problem in that the gasoline powered car was patended. He had to have an alternative to get around the patent. He was pro gasoline.
It was Ford, Firestone, Edison and Rockefeller that pushed for the federal highway bill to promote all their interests.
Knock off the B.S. that Ford was interested in Ethanol and biofuels.
Profile Pic
rumbleseat
Champion Author Winnipeg

Posts:25,198
Points:3,825,385
Joined:Oct 2002
Message Posted: Mar 22, 2013 4:43:40 AM

"What does that have to do with the price of tea in China?"
Hey, YOU are the one that brought it up, you tell us?

"That the engine produced only 20hp and yet only got 16mpg is proof how badly it ran..."
Actually it is proof you actually think cars were originally invented with starters, electric lights, 200 hp engines, everything modern cars have, and Henry Ford just couldn't be bothered putting them in the Model T. Have you no idea what a grand invention the automobile was? Have you no idea how modern and innovative the Model T was at the time?
I guess you would consider the Wright Bros to have built a piece of crap plane as well, they should have gone straight to building a DC-10!

Bottom line, and YOU can't change it no matter how you spin it, is that Henry Ford built the Model T so it could run on ethanol because he believed it was the fuel of the future.

[Edited by: rumbleseat at 3/22/2013 4:45:42 AM EST]
Profile Pic
goldseeker
Champion Author West Virginia

Posts:22,815
Points:3,276,840
Joined:Sep 2005
Message Posted: Mar 22, 2013 3:52:02 AM


*Those organizations and companies who support gasoline seem mainly driven by profit and greed; Those who are for gasoline, often base their arguments on decades of biased studies that demonstrate gasolines negative effects to engines, higher cost of gas for consumers, and unnecessary government-funded oil/gasoline incentives and tax credits.
Profile Pic
Dewdude19
Rookie Author California

Posts:7
Points:25,990
Joined:Mar 2013
Message Posted: Mar 21, 2013 6:04:08 PM

interesting
Profile Pic
SilverStreaker
Champion Author Twin Cities

Posts:14,039
Points:2,754,585
Joined:Mar 2006
Message Posted: Mar 21, 2013 11:48:25 AM

Shocky says "That the engine produced only 20hp and yet only got 16mpg is proof how badly it ran"

Prove that the MPG compared to horsepower for that era vehicle is "proof how badly it ran"
So far, you have only proved that you love to spin.
Profile Pic
Snoman1
Rookie Author Twin Cities

Posts:8
Points:528,895
Joined:Dec 2012
Message Posted: Mar 21, 2013 10:15:19 AM

i can tell everyone from experience ethanol does not work well in snowmobiles,and anything 2 stroke,gums everything up
Profile Pic
Shockjock1961
Champion Author Illinois

Posts:23,521
Points:2,739,715
Joined:Apr 2006
Message Posted: Mar 21, 2013 9:03:32 AM

"Prove that the Model T didn't "run very well"."

That the engine produced only 20hp and yet only got 16mpg is proof how badly it ran...
Profile Pic
Shockjock1961
Champion Author Illinois

Posts:23,521
Points:2,739,715
Joined:Apr 2006
Message Posted: Mar 21, 2013 9:02:09 AM

What does that have to do with the price of tea in China?
Profile Pic
rumbleseat
Champion Author Winnipeg

Posts:25,198
Points:3,825,385
Joined:Oct 2002
Message Posted: Mar 21, 2013 2:37:57 AM

By the way Shocky, the Model T Touring got an electric starter in 1913.
Profile Pic
Hannie59
All-Star Author Appleton

Posts:963
Points:24,280
Joined:Apr 2010
Message Posted: Mar 20, 2013 11:31:23 PM

tdioiler, don't you know that prohibition was funded by ROCKEFELLER???? He pushed it through the government to squash alternatives to petroleum. Sadly, not much has changed. He funded a group under the guise of "christian women" with what today would be a billion dollars! He did it so people couldn't get alcohol for their cars! Nothing at all to do with consumption of alcohol at all. Check your history.

Prohibition WAS the oil industry. Sadly, their tactics are the same today!
Profile Pic
tdioiler
All-Star Author Detroit

Posts:995
Points:694,025
Joined:Jul 2011
Message Posted: Mar 20, 2013 11:26:21 PM

The Ford Model T sold well for one fact; it was CHEAP!

The belts fell off in the rain, the suspension was akin to a brick, and the engine ran hot all the time.

Since the floor boards were made from the packing crates used to ship the transmission, no surprise it sold well.

It wasn't selling due to great performance on ethanol !! So Silverstreak, where's your proof it did run well on the drink. Heck, prohibition put an end to that thought!
Profile Pic
vlados4
Rookie Author Calgary

Posts:3
Points:160
Joined:Mar 2013
Message Posted: Mar 14, 2013 12:31:45 PM

Excellent post from Meddig. My cars drops in 12-15% MPG if I put in 10% ethanol blend. I agree with every word and $$$ reasons to add ethanol to gasoline. And auto mechanic will probably make money in long run.
Profile Pic
SilverStreaker
Champion Author Twin Cities

Posts:14,039
Points:2,754,585
Joined:Mar 2006
Message Posted: Feb 23, 2013 5:37:19 PM

Shockjock1961 claims "The Model T engine was indeed multi-fuel, but it didn't run very well on any of them"

Prove that the Model T didn't "run very well". They sold over 15 million of these vehicles that you say "didn't run very well". Also, since you've likely missed the point of this thread, prove that this over 100 year old vehicle suffered more damage from ethanol than it did from gasoline.
Profile Pic
Shockjock1961
Champion Author Illinois

Posts:23,521
Points:2,739,715
Joined:Apr 2006
Message Posted: Feb 23, 2013 5:07:43 PM

"So the cars that get only 16mpg are sloppy also"

Engines that run on Kerosene, ethanol or gasoline generating a mere 20hp while getting 16mpg are...

The Model T engine was indeed multi-fuel, but it didn't run very well on any of them...

[Edited by: Shockjock1961 at 2/23/2013 5:09:07 PM EST]
Profile Pic
Daurel
Veteran Author Indiana

Posts:341
Points:37,310
Joined:Jul 2011
Message Posted: Feb 23, 2013 3:04:22 PM

A yes the Model T. Fine example. A 20 Hp engine that got about 16mpg and had to be cranked by hand to start.

So the cars that get only 16mpg are sloppy also?

meddig Indiana has had Ethanol for OVER 10 years and there are not any cars-trucks broken down littering the roads try again.
Profile Pic
krzysiek_ck
Champion Author Illinois

Posts:8,136
Points:1,285,285
Joined:Apr 2011
Message Posted: Feb 23, 2013 9:42:09 AM

Do you spin much, Shockjock1961? Of course you do.

[Edited by: krzysiek_ck at 2/23/2013 9:42:33 AM EST]
Post a reply Back to Topics