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Meddig Rookie Author Buffalo Posts:12 Points:1,190 Joined:Jan 2013	Message Posted: Jan 31, 2013 5:42:52 PM Ignore Meddig Report Abuse * Not a single engine manufacturer allows for use of over 10% ethanol alcohol in gasoline. * * Many engine types run best on ethanol-free fuel types * The rapid push for E15 conventional gas is a foolish plan, which will only benefit (profit) ethanol producers, while causing increased risk of gasoline-caused engine damage, water-contamination and decreased mpg for consumers. E15 Waiver 2009-10 Background: In April 2009, Growth Energy, ACE -American Coalition for Ethanol, and 54 ethanol producers completed submission of a formal request to the EPA for increase of E10 to E15. Deadline to respond was July 20th,2009. Probably due to lack of public input, the EPA foolishly approved E15 Oct. 2010, and has held back distribution due to several obstacles and legal details: EPA website states, "As of November 7, 2011, E15 is not registered with EPA and is therefore not legal for distribution or sale as a transportation fuel...There are a number of additional factors including requirements under other federal, state, and local laws that may also affect the distribution of E15. The granting of the partial waivers (see below) is only one of several requirements for registration..." E15 makes less sense than E10, which has already caused too many unnecessary engine damage and increased gas consumption and cost. Not all gas powered engines are designed for alcohol fuel blends. Both E10 and E15 do nothing to decrease petroleum consumption. E85 makes sense (used only in flex-fuel "green" cars). But sneaking more ethanol into conventional fuel seems unlawful. Damage caused by E15 will not be covered by engine warranties since all manufacturers allow only up to 10% (E10). When used as a gas or additive (oxygenator) ethanol is subsidized by our state and federal government. The taxpayer funded support of ethanol (subsidies, tax credits), with concommittant decrease in mpg and efficiency for ethanol blends, (without lower pricing) is just one more slap in the face to your average, strugggling American consumer. The water-absorbing properties and solvent effects of ethanol (gas contamination & engine breakdown) will once again hit the marine engine and older vehicle owners the hardest, as we've seen with with widespread distribution of E10 in recent years. *Those organizations and companies who support ethanol seem mainly driven by profit and greed; Those who are against ethanol, often base their arguments on decades of factual and reputable studies that demonstrate alcohol's negative effects to engines and gasoline stability, higher cost of gas for consumers, and unnecessary government-funded ethanol incentives and tax credits.

Meddig

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Buffalo

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Message Posted: Jan 31, 2013 5:42:52 PM

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* Not a single engine manufacturer allows for use of over 10% ethanol alcohol in gasoline. *
* Many engine types run best on ethanol-free fuel types *

The rapid push for E15 conventional gas is a foolish plan, which will only benefit (profit) ethanol producers, while causing increased risk of gasoline-caused engine damage, water-contamination and decreased mpg for consumers.

E15 Waiver 2009-10 Background: In April 2009, Growth Energy, ACE -American Coalition for Ethanol, and 54 ethanol producers completed submission of a formal request to the EPA for increase of E10 to E15. Deadline to respond was July 20th,2009. Probably due to lack of public input, the EPA foolishly approved E15 Oct. 2010, and has held back distribution due to several obstacles and legal details:
EPA website states, "As of November 7, 2011, E15 is not registered with EPA and is therefore not legal for distribution or sale as a transportation fuel...There are a number of additional factors including requirements under other federal, state, and local laws that may also affect the distribution of E15. The granting of the partial waivers (see below) is only one of several requirements for registration..."

E15 makes less sense than E10, which has already caused too many unnecessary engine damage and increased gas consumption and cost. Not all gas powered engines are designed for alcohol fuel blends. Both E10 and E15 do nothing to decrease petroleum consumption. E85 makes sense (used only in flex-fuel "green" cars). But sneaking more ethanol into conventional fuel seems unlawful. Damage caused by E15 will not be covered by engine warranties since all manufacturers allow only up to 10% (E10).

When used as a gas or additive (oxygenator) ethanol is subsidized by our state and federal government.
The taxpayer funded support of ethanol (subsidies, tax credits), with concommittant decrease in mpg and efficiency for ethanol blends, (without lower pricing) is just one more slap in the face to your average, strugggling American consumer.

The water-absorbing properties and solvent effects of ethanol (gas contamination & engine breakdown) will once again hit the marine engine and older vehicle owners the hardest, as we've seen with with widespread distribution of E10 in recent years.

*Those organizations and companies who support ethanol seem mainly driven by profit and greed; Those who are against ethanol, often base their arguments on decades of factual and reputable studies that demonstrate alcohol's negative effects to engines and gasoline stability, higher cost of gas for consumers, and unnecessary government-funded ethanol incentives and tax credits.

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tdioiler All-Star Author Detroit Posts:933 Points:441,185 Joined:Jul 2011	Message Posted: Apr 19, 2013 10:50:22 PM Ignore tdioiler Report Abuse Because even the Ford Model T ran clean diesel. That was called kerosene back then. And it even had an electric starter too.... Get it ?
rumbleseat Champion Author Winnipeg Posts:23,066 Points:3,550,100 Joined:Oct 2002	Message Posted: Apr 19, 2013 1:42:56 AM Ignore rumbleseat Report Abuse Diesel? And what does that have to do with the discussion about ethanol? This whole thread has been about gasoline/ethanol blends. What does diesel have to do with an internal combustion engine? Diesel is a compression ignition engine. You aren't taking my point to the extreme, you are obfuscating.
tdioiler All-Star Author Detroit Posts:933 Points:441,185 Joined:Jul 2011	Message Posted: Apr 18, 2013 8:43:15 PM Ignore tdioiler Report Abuse So Rumble, Thick dirty lumpy (in the cold) diesel isn't good either? So if you clean off the metal of any type of deposit, in you fuel system or inside the combustion chamber, that's a really great idea? So why waste your money on oil then? That makes everything in the engine sooo dirty! Just taking your point to the other extreme.
rumbleseat Champion Author Winnipeg Posts:23,066 Points:3,550,100 Joined:Oct 2002	Message Posted: Apr 15, 2013 4:29:20 AM Ignore rumbleseat Report Abuse When did varnish or gummy deposits in the fuel lines and carburetor or injectors become lubricants?
tdioiler All-Star Author Detroit Posts:933 Points:441,185 Joined:Jul 2011	Message Posted: Apr 14, 2013 11:19:02 PM Ignore tdioiler Report Abuse If ethanol cleans out the gunk inside a ICE, wouldn't that reduce the lubrication so important for engine life?
minookaband Rookie Author Illinois Posts:97 Points:23,105 Joined:Dec 2012	Message Posted: Apr 1, 2013 12:14:11 AM Ignore minookaband Report Abuse please give me a choice!
cheap_gas73 Rookie Author Quad Cities Posts:25 Points:7,705 Joined:Apr 2009	Message Posted: Apr 1, 2013 12:08:20 AM Ignore cheap_gas73 Report Abuse I get it when its cheaper, never any problems.
tdioiler All-Star Author Detroit Posts:933 Points:441,185 Joined:Jul 2011	Message Posted: Mar 31, 2013 1:43:57 PM Ignore tdioiler Report Abuse I just want the choice of ethanol or not. What is this, US of Russia???
tdioiler All-Star Author Detroit Posts:933 Points:441,185 Joined:Jul 2011	Message Posted: Mar 31, 2013 1:42:49 PM Ignore tdioiler Report Abuse Goldseeker, your comments on who funds lobby groups need to include many other groups before big oil. Try; Lawyers, medical, agro, before 'big oil'.
BigHorne1 Champion Author Missouri Posts:1,632 Points:323,500 Joined:Jul 2012	Message Posted: Mar 31, 2013 1:39:54 AM Ignore BigHorne1 Report Abuse Even in the new vehicles that can take this, it shows that you get worse mpg, that should be the most important reason, especially in this economy, why use something that will cost you more in the long run.
Daurel Veteran Author Indiana Posts:319 Points:33,270 Joined:Jul 2011	Message Posted: Mar 30, 2013 1:09:08 PM Ignore Daurel Report Abuse At 50.000 mm. I will have to adjust the valves on my engine due to the use of ethanol. If you do NOT have self adjusting lifters IE hydraulic you are WAY past due! Ethanol did not cause this stupid did.
EvergreenON Champion Author Ontario Posts:1,073 Points:510,110 Joined:Apr 2011	Message Posted: Mar 30, 2013 7:31:37 AM Ignore EvergreenON Report Abuse At 50.000 mm. I will have to adjust the valves on my engine due to the use of ethanol. Nobody can convince me of the usefulness of this product.
jay93LA Champion Author New Orleans Posts:2,584 Points:626,435 Joined:Aug 2011	Message Posted: Mar 30, 2013 6:53:06 AM Ignore jay93LA Report Abuse correct
goldseeker Champion Author West Virginia Posts:19,755 Points:2,746,515 Joined:Sep 2005	Message Posted: Mar 27, 2013 3:19:51 AM Ignore goldseeker Report Abuse "car manufacturers and government aren't influenced by big oil." Are you kidding, big oil owns them. Big oil spends more money on lobbying than any other group.
tdioiler All-Star Author Detroit Posts:933 Points:441,185 Joined:Jul 2011	Message Posted: Mar 26, 2013 9:49:00 PM Ignore tdioiler Report Abuse Silversreak,"You haven't proven that the car manufacturers and government aren't influenced by big oil. " So what proof do you have? Other than your Mel Gibson act, please provide any proof of what you are saying. On the other hand, I have worked alongside most of the OEM's and never meet anyone at their offices who spoke of dropping ethanol discussions because their company works with along oil. Actually most talk of alternatives, including batteries. But just the same thought, people don't like things the gov't shoves up our... No one trust them, so why wouldn't the govt propaganda machine on ethanol be any different?
Shockjock1961 Champion Author Illinois Posts:20,375 Points:2,211,885 Joined:Apr 2006	Message Posted: Mar 26, 2013 7:18:01 PM Ignore Shockjock1961 Report Abuse Pot... Meet Kettle....
SilverStreaker Champion Author Twin Cities Posts:12,074 Points:2,243,185 Joined:Mar 2006	Message Posted: Mar 26, 2013 5:55:31 PM Ignore SilverStreaker Report Abuse Shocky, you have no problem asking others to prove your allegations, but you do with the opposite. Thanks for proving this point.
Shockjock1961 Champion Author Illinois Posts:20,375 Points:2,211,885 Joined:Apr 2006	Message Posted: Mar 26, 2013 4:34:33 PM Ignore Shockjock1961 Report Abuse You haven't proven they are, so what's your point?
SilverStreaker Champion Author Twin Cities Posts:12,074 Points:2,243,185 Joined:Mar 2006	Message Posted: Mar 26, 2013 10:45:43 AM Ignore SilverStreaker Report Abuse Shockjock says "Car manufacturers and the government says otherwise..." You haven't proven that the car manufacturers and government aren't influenced by big oil.
Shockjock1961 Champion Author Illinois Posts:20,375 Points:2,211,885 Joined:Apr 2006	Message Posted: Mar 26, 2013 9:14:29 AM Ignore Shockjock1961 Report Abuse "I wish they'd do away with ethanol in the fuel" Or at the very least, give you a choice on whether you want it diluting your gasoline, or not...
rumbleseat Champion Author Winnipeg Posts:23,066 Points:3,550,100 Joined:Oct 2002	Message Posted: Mar 26, 2013 3:48:53 AM Ignore rumbleseat Report Abuse "What you haven't proven is that you can NOT run a modern engine on ethanol that was not designed for it without adverse consequences..." 1974 Ford 1976 Mercury 1974 Chev 1976 Plymouth 1974 Dodge None of them were designed for the E10 that was yet to come, yet they all ran perfectly fine, absolutely no adverse consequences, on E10. Prove it? Our family drove them, I drove them, my wife drove them. We still run every day on E10, we still aren't having ethanol-related problems with our current vehicles.
x78370 Rookie Author Illinois Posts:8 Points:157,975 Joined:Oct 2011	Message Posted: Mar 26, 2013 2:33:39 AM Ignore x78370 Report Abuse I wish they'd do away with ethanol in the fuel.
Shockjock1961 Champion Author Illinois Posts:20,375 Points:2,211,885 Joined:Apr 2006	Message Posted: Mar 25, 2013 8:49:34 AM Ignore Shockjock1961 Report Abuse "What you haven't proven is that you can NOT run a modern engine on ethanol that was not designed for it without adverse consequences..." Car manufacturers and the government says otherwise...
kinger9976433 Rookie Author California Posts:42 Points:114,350 Joined:Apr 2011	Message Posted: Mar 24, 2013 7:00:13 PM Ignore kinger9976433 Report Abuse Acually, to those saying there was no patent on the car... there was a patent on the gasoline powered automobile at the time Ford came on the scene. Back then, one had lease the rights to manufacture automobiles. Ford applied and was denied. He manufactured his cars anyway. He was told he was infringing on patent rights and to pay massive sums in royalties. Whole thing went to court and Ford won.
SilverStreaker Champion Author Twin Cities Posts:12,074 Points:2,243,185 Joined:Mar 2006	Message Posted: Mar 24, 2013 6:49:05 PM Ignore SilverStreaker Report Abuse Shocky, What you haven't proven is that you can NOT run a modern engine on ethanol that was not designed for it without adverse consequences... You made the allegation, you defend it.
Shockjock1961 Champion Author Illinois Posts:20,375 Points:2,211,885 Joined:Apr 2006	Message Posted: Mar 24, 2013 5:46:02 PM Ignore Shockjock1961 Report Abuse "The Model T ran on ethanol or gasoline." The model T engine was so sloppy it ran on just about anything to include kerosene. I think it's evident you can run a modern engine on ethanol SS. What you haven't proven is that you can run a modern engine on ethanol that was not designed for it without adverse consequences...
SilverStreaker Champion Author Twin Cities Posts:12,074 Points:2,243,185 Joined:Mar 2006	Message Posted: Mar 23, 2013 6:21:41 PM Ignore SilverStreaker Report Abuse The Model T ran on ethanol or gasoline. Shocky, thanks for pointing out that the Model T engines, like those of the era had a "fairly primitive design". You've proven my point that it's not rocket science to run a gasoline engine on ethanol.
Shockjock1961 Champion Author Illinois Posts:20,375 Points:2,211,885 Joined:Apr 2006	Message Posted: Mar 23, 2013 9:58:55 AM Ignore Shockjock1961 Report Abuse "So, Shocky, did all these other vehicles also "run poorly", or just the Model T?" I'm sure, being of a fairly primitive design, they all pretty much ran poorly back then SS..
goldseeker Champion Author West Virginia Posts:19,755 Points:2,746,515 Joined:Sep 2005	Message Posted: Mar 23, 2013 4:44:40 AM Ignore goldseeker Report Abuse Lies coming from the oil patch can never hide the real truth.
rumbleseat Champion Author Winnipeg Posts:23,066 Points:3,550,100 Joined:Oct 2002	Message Posted: Mar 23, 2013 1:46:21 AM Ignore rumbleseat Report Abuse Shocky, it is still on this page! Shockjock1961 Message Posted: Feb 23, 2013 8:18:25 AM "A yes the Model T. Fine example. A 20 Hp engine that got about 16mpg and had to be cranked by hand to start..."
SilverStreaker Champion Author Twin Cities Posts:12,074 Points:2,243,185 Joined:Mar 2006	Message Posted: Mar 22, 2013 7:34:26 PM Ignore SilverStreaker Report Abuse borsht claims "Henry Ford had a problem in that the gasoline powered car was patended. He had to have an alternative to get around the patent." This is pure BS! There were many other gasoline powered cars produced before the Model T, as you can read in the History of the Automobile So, Shocky, did all these other vehicles also "run poorly", or just the Model T?
krzysiek_ck Champion Author Illinois Posts:5,495 Points:755,860 Joined:Apr 2011	Message Posted: Mar 22, 2013 12:21:18 PM Ignore krzysiek_ck Report Abuse "The fuel of the future, according to both Henry Ford and Charles F. Kettering, was ethyl alcohol made from farm products and cellulosic materials. Ford, of course, is well known as an automotive inventor; Kettering was the head of research at General Motors and a highly respected inventor in his own right." Henry Ford, Charles Kettering and the Fuel of the Future "In 1925, Henry Ford tells the New York Times that ethyl alcohol is "the fuel of the future" which “is going to come from fruit like that sumach out by the road, or from apples, weeds, sawdust -- almost anything. There is fuel in every bit of vegetable matter that can be fermented. There's enough alcohol in one year's yield of an acre of potatoes to drive the machinery necessary to cultivate the fields for a hundred years."" Timeline of alcohol fuel [Edited by: krzysiek_ck at 3/22/2013 12:26:11 PM EST]
Shockjock1961 Champion Author Illinois Posts:20,375 Points:2,211,885 Joined:Apr 2006	Message Posted: Mar 22, 2013 11:24:42 AM Ignore Shockjock1961 Report Abuse "Actually it is proof you actually think cars were originally invented with starters, electric lights, 200 hp engines" No it's just proof that I believe that motors a hundred years ago were so sloppy you could use several different types of fuel, and they wouldn't run particularly well on any one of them... Still not sure what electric starters have to do with the quality of the motor...
Shockjock1961 Champion Author Illinois Posts:20,375 Points:2,211,885 Joined:Apr 2006	Message Posted: Mar 22, 2013 11:18:16 AM Ignore Shockjock1961 Report Abuse "Hey, YOU are the one that brought it up, you tell us?" I brought up the subject of electric starters? I don't recall that... Care to point out where I did?
borsht All-Star Author Oakland Posts:926 Points:217,445 Joined:Aug 2012	Message Posted: Mar 22, 2013 11:12:31 AM Ignore borsht Report Abuse Henry Ford had a problem in that the gasoline powered car was patended. He had to have an alternative to get around the patent. He was pro gasoline. It was Ford, Firestone, Edison and Rockefeller that pushed for the federal highway bill to promote all their interests. Knock off the B.S. that Ford was interested in Ethanol and biofuels.
rumbleseat Champion Author Winnipeg Posts:23,066 Points:3,550,100 Joined:Oct 2002	Message Posted: Mar 22, 2013 4:43:40 AM Ignore rumbleseat Report Abuse "What does that have to do with the price of tea in China?" Hey, YOU are the one that brought it up, you tell us? "That the engine produced only 20hp and yet only got 16mpg is proof how badly it ran..." Actually it is proof you actually think cars were originally invented with starters, electric lights, 200 hp engines, everything modern cars have, and Henry Ford just couldn't be bothered putting them in the Model T. Have you no idea what a grand invention the automobile was? Have you no idea how modern and innovative the Model T was at the time? I guess you would consider the Wright Bros to have built a piece of crap plane as well, they should have gone straight to building a DC-10! Bottom line, and YOU can't change it no matter how you spin it, is that Henry Ford built the Model T so it could run on ethanol because he believed it was the fuel of the future. [Edited by: rumbleseat at 3/22/2013 4:45:42 AM EST]
goldseeker Champion Author West Virginia Posts:19,755 Points:2,746,515 Joined:Sep 2005	Message Posted: Mar 22, 2013 3:52:02 AM Ignore goldseeker Report Abuse *Those organizations and companies who support gasoline seem mainly driven by profit and greed; Those who are for gasoline, often base their arguments on decades of biased studies that demonstrate gasolines negative effects to engines, higher cost of gas for consumers, and unnecessary government-funded oil/gasoline incentives and tax credits.
Dewdude19 Rookie Author California Posts:7 Points:11,690 Joined:Mar 2013	Message Posted: Mar 21, 2013 6:04:08 PM Ignore Dewdude19 Report Abuse interesting
SilverStreaker Champion Author Twin Cities Posts:12,074 Points:2,243,185 Joined:Mar 2006	Message Posted: Mar 21, 2013 11:48:25 AM Ignore SilverStreaker Report Abuse Shocky says "That the engine produced only 20hp and yet only got 16mpg is proof how badly it ran" Prove that the MPG compared to horsepower for that era vehicle is "proof how badly it ran" So far, you have only proved that you love to spin.
Snoman1 Rookie Author Twin Cities Posts:7 Points:121,770 Joined:Dec 2012	Message Posted: Mar 21, 2013 10:15:19 AM Ignore Snoman1 Report Abuse i can tell everyone from experience ethanol does not work well in snowmobiles,and anything 2 stroke,gums everything up
Shockjock1961 Champion Author Illinois Posts:20,375 Points:2,211,885 Joined:Apr 2006	Message Posted: Mar 21, 2013 9:03:32 AM Ignore Shockjock1961 Report Abuse "Prove that the Model T didn't "run very well"." That the engine produced only 20hp and yet only got 16mpg is proof how badly it ran...
Shockjock1961 Champion Author Illinois Posts:20,375 Points:2,211,885 Joined:Apr 2006	Message Posted: Mar 21, 2013 9:02:09 AM Ignore Shockjock1961 Report Abuse What does that have to do with the price of tea in China?
rumbleseat Champion Author Winnipeg Posts:23,066 Points:3,550,100 Joined:Oct 2002	Message Posted: Mar 21, 2013 2:37:57 AM Ignore rumbleseat Report Abuse By the way Shocky, the Model T Touring got an electric starter in 1913.
Hannie59 All-Star Author Appleton Posts:648 Points:17,685 Joined:Apr 2010	Message Posted: Mar 20, 2013 11:31:23 PM Ignore Hannie59 Report Abuse tdioiler, don't you know that prohibition was funded by ROCKEFELLER???? He pushed it through the government to squash alternatives to petroleum. Sadly, not much has changed. He funded a group under the guise of "christian women" with what today would be a billion dollars! He did it so people couldn't get alcohol for their cars! Nothing at all to do with consumption of alcohol at all. Check your history. Prohibition WAS the oil industry. Sadly, their tactics are the same today!
tdioiler All-Star Author Detroit Posts:933 Points:441,185 Joined:Jul 2011	Message Posted: Mar 20, 2013 11:26:21 PM Ignore tdioiler Report Abuse The Ford Model T sold well for one fact; it was CHEAP! The belts fell off in the rain, the suspension was akin to a brick, and the engine ran hot all the time. Since the floor boards were made from the packing crates used to ship the transmission, no surprise it sold well. It wasn't selling due to great performance on ethanol !! So Silverstreak, where's your proof it did run well on the drink. Heck, prohibition put an end to that thought!
vlados4 Rookie Author Calgary Posts:3 Points:160 Joined:Mar 2013	Message Posted: Mar 14, 2013 12:31:45 PM Ignore vlados4 Report Abuse Excellent post from Meddig. My cars drops in 12-15% MPG if I put in 10% ethanol blend. I agree with every word and $$$ reasons to add ethanol to gasoline. And auto mechanic will probably make money in long run.
SilverStreaker Champion Author Twin Cities Posts:12,074 Points:2,243,185 Joined:Mar 2006	Message Posted: Feb 23, 2013 5:37:19 PM Ignore SilverStreaker Report Abuse Shockjock1961 claims "The Model T engine was indeed multi-fuel, but it didn't run very well on any of them" Prove that the Model T didn't "run very well". They sold over 15 million of these vehicles that you say "didn't run very well". Also, since you've likely missed the point of this thread, prove that this over 100 year old vehicle suffered more damage from ethanol than it did from gasoline.
Shockjock1961 Champion Author Illinois Posts:20,375 Points:2,211,885 Joined:Apr 2006	Message Posted: Feb 23, 2013 5:07:43 PM Ignore Shockjock1961 Report Abuse "So the cars that get only 16mpg are sloppy also" Engines that run on Kerosene, ethanol or gasoline generating a mere 20hp while getting 16mpg are... The Model T engine was indeed multi-fuel, but it didn't run very well on any of them... [Edited by: Shockjock1961 at 2/23/2013 5:09:07 PM EST]
Daurel Veteran Author Indiana Posts:319 Points:33,270 Joined:Jul 2011	Message Posted: Feb 23, 2013 3:04:22 PM Ignore Daurel Report Abuse A yes the Model T. Fine example. A 20 Hp engine that got about 16mpg and had to be cranked by hand to start. So the cars that get only 16mpg are sloppy also? meddig Indiana has had Ethanol for OVER 10 years and there are not any cars-trucks broken down littering the roads try again.
krzysiek_ck Champion Author Illinois Posts:5,495 Points:755,860 Joined:Apr 2011	Message Posted: Feb 23, 2013 9:42:09 AM Ignore krzysiek_ck Report Abuse Do you spin much, Shockjock1961? Of course you do. [Edited by: krzysiek_ck at 2/23/2013 9:42:33 AM EST]