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Author Topic: Does "non ethanol" premium cost more? Don't waste your money on it... Back to Topics
Hannie59

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Message Posted: Jan 21, 2013 3:00:49 PM

Does "non ethanol" premium cost more where you live? Maybe 20 cents a gallon or so? Don't waste your money on it...

Some have possibly convinced you that this is a superior product to good ol' unleaded with 10% ethanol. In reality, it pollutes more and gums up your engine more. And if there is a mileage difference, it is no more that 1/2 of 1 percentage point.

In addition stop fearing E-15. It does not harm anything.

The facts are ethanol is less corrosive than gasoline unless it seperates, which never happens unless you store your car for months on end without any motion. The materials in your car's fuel system cannot tell the difference between 10, 15, or even 20% ethanol. Only the computer sensors can, and they will adjust just fine. And your engine will have less carbon build up and run a little cooler with the ethanol, thus extending vehicle life.


[Edited by: Hannie59 at 1/21/2013 3:02:49 PM EST]
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goldseeker
Champion Author West Virginia

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Message Posted: Feb 3, 2013 9:08:24 AM

Hey Meddig: Why is it that pure ethanol is given a excellent rating by Dupont with rubber and many polymers, yet not so with gasoline and some of the common components of gasoline? Come on, you claim to be a chemical engineer, so you should know that one right off the top of your head.Also, there is no state or locality where E15 is mandated, so what is the gripe? Did you know that there are more blender pumps out there that gives folks a choice of E10, E30, E50, and E85 than there is E15 pumps?
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Hannie59
All-Star Author Appleton

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Message Posted: Feb 2, 2013 12:23:05 PM

Meddig, that is informative. I was under the impression that ethanol was not as prevalent in Canada as it was here. But we found some agreement there LOL we both want that choice.

I see the difference in cost between E-10 and ethanol free where I am at. For whatever reasons, subsidization or not, there seems to be a difference. But that's what varies even in my area, and the variance can be large. As much as 30 cents a gallon as some stations to about 10 cents or even like 8 cents more at one place and even one station that competes at the same price and claims no ethanol even in their "regular" grade (It's a Marathon branded station).
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Meddig
Rookie Author Buffalo

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Message Posted: Feb 2, 2013 11:02:31 AM

The real deal is choice. I certainly respect Hannie's choice and he respects mine and anyone elses and that's crucial. Hannie indicated that the choice should be ours and the problem is it is not like that. If the information being jammed down everyone's throat is that Ethanol is a superior choice than regular gas, why cant we have a choice? I live in Niagara Falls, Canada and I have one station here that offers non ethanol,however the cost is outrageous. Because I do have some insight into the good and bad things ethanol can do, I choose to not use it but I'm not given that choice, I am forced to either suck it up and run with 10% ethanol, or go stateside and buy it there.. now thats not a bad thing but it brings in a whole new can of worms where i'm now supporting the US economy. We need choice and we aren't given it.
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SoylentGrain
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Feb 2, 2013 9:22:20 AM

"Water is one of those things which reacts with ethanol but not gasoline. Gasoline can not suspend harmful amounts of water, it harmlessly falls out of solution and can be drained from the bottom. E10 can suspend harmful quantities of water."

First, water does not "react" with ethanol. It mixes with ethanol. The two chemicals remain separate, but soluble.

Second, you don't remember the days when gasoline contained only petroleum distillate compounds and fuel tanks were not sealed as well as they are today. Gas line freezing was a common occurrence in sub zero weather.
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krzysiek_ck
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Feb 1, 2013 3:41:10 PM

GrumpyCat wrote: "Gasoline can not suspend harmful amounts of water, it harmlessly falls out of solution and can be drained from the bottom."

True and false. The water in your E0 gas tank will go to the bottom, and then it will get picked up by the fuel pump. Thank you for admitting that E0 has a much bigger issue with water then any E% solutions.

Also, how many times have you drained your vehicle gas tank, GrumpyCat?

[Edited by: krzysiek_ck at 2/1/2013 3:45:34 PM EST]
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Hannie59
All-Star Author Appleton

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Message Posted: Feb 1, 2013 3:16:56 PM

Grumpy, do you know for sure that I am or am not an engineer?

How a fuel is transported and how it works in a vehicle are two VERY different things.

What I was referring to is this partuicular reference from Dupont, on elastomers and compatibility with different liquids. You will see that these elastomers, commonly used in fuel systems, are far less likely to experience problems with ethyl alcohol than with gasoline.

Compatibility of elastomers with ethanol and gasoline and other substances

Just highlight the substance on the right and look at the results.

In addition I posted a link showing the parts on FFV versions of Fords and GMs vs. their non FFV counterparts and they were virtually te same.

You did get get one thing right, I am not an engineer. But all engineers have not turned to the dark side. And many engineers are the ones responsible for the research proving that ethanol is not harmful.

You got alot of other things wrong.



[Edited by: Hannie59 at 2/1/2013 3:22:18 PM EST]
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GrumpyCat
Champion Author Alabama

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Message Posted: Feb 1, 2013 2:35:20 PM

Hannie59 says, "What needs to be stopped are the false claims of it being damaging to vehicles. If you don't want to use it, please don't. Ever. But if you are a chemical engineer as you claim, look up the materials compatibility of engine parts, and you will find ethanol to be far less "damaging" than gasoline to all of these parts."

Obviously Hannie59 is not a chemical engineer, or engineer of any sort. There is no such thing as the 2D "more damaging" scale you imagine. The reaction of compounds is multi-dimensional. One compound may be nasty to another, but no reaction at all to third. Is quite possible, and often proven that some components designed and tested 100% unreactive to gasoline fall apart in the presence of E10.

Ethanol can not be shipped by petroleum pipeline because there is otherwise harmless crud in pipelines which stays where it is. But if E10 was piped through the crud would be dissolved into solution and create a big problem. Many gas stations and automobiles suffered the same problem before E10 was prevalent.

Water is one of those things which reacts with ethanol but not gasoline. Gasoline can not suspend harmful amounts of water, it harmlessly falls out of solution and can be drained from the bottom. E10 can suspend harmful quantities of water. And then when E10 gets more than it can hold both water and ethanol start falling out of solution. Big bad mess.
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Hannie59
All-Star Author Appleton

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Message Posted: Feb 1, 2013 11:08:30 AM

Well Meddig, while that anaology is flawed, I absolutely respect individual decisions. I STRONGLY believe ethanol free gas should be legal and available. E-0 at every blender pump, absolutely 100%. But people need to stop using the fuel whether it's E-85 or an additive, as a scapegoat for failures in vehicles. It simply is not the CAUSE of problems in vehicles.

What needs to be stopped are the false claims of it being damaging to vehicles. If you don't want to use it, please don't. Ever. But if you are a chemical engineer as you claim, look up the materials compatibility of engine parts, and you will find ethanol to be far less "damaging" than gasoline to all of these parts.

yes, you do get less mileage with E-85, but negligible with E-10.

It's the lies, scare tactics, and false information by the posters I want to refute, not your ability to use whatever fuel you can in your vehicle for whatever reasons you choose to believe and support.

[Edited by: Hannie59 at 2/1/2013 11:13:32 AM EST]
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Meddig
Rookie Author Buffalo

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Message Posted: Jan 31, 2013 5:05:15 PM

Hannie
Unfortunately the facts are only the ones in your head.
I'm not saying your vehicle wont run on E-15, it will, but because it can is not a reason to use it consistently. Check the manufacturers (i happen to be a chemical engineer for one). E-15 is not recommended and in most cases, drop by a car lot and look at the gas caps which clearly have a "DO NOT GO OVER E-10" I can understand, maybe you just want the cheapest gas for your use and that's great but you have to understand the logic and brains behind chosing not to. I have an open mind and accept the fact you don't appreciate its use, you must do the same and appreciate why others choose not to consider a better option. Some folks are fine sleeping in a motel 6 because its just sleep and others are more comfortable staying at a Hilton where its cleaner.
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hatterasjack
Champion Author South Carolina

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Message Posted: Jan 30, 2013 10:29:59 PM

I'll stick with ethanol-free gas thank you. More and more stations in this area are offering it. One convenience store chain, Hot Spot, has regular non-ethanol on every pump. It's common knowledge that gasoline burns with significantly more energy than alcohol. I've had two fuel pumps replaces in the last few years so I'll stick with the tried and true, pure gas.
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SilverStreaker
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Message Posted: Jan 30, 2013 10:40:30 AM

I've used non-ethanol gas while traveling and haven't noticed any difference in mileage. I wouldn't waste any money on it if it cost more.
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Hannie59
All-Star Author Appleton

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Message Posted: Jan 30, 2013 9:33:58 AM

The facts point 100% to you being wrong Meddig. Get your head out of the sand and put E-15 in your car, it will be much better off.

If you looked beyond what the American Petroleum Instute and the food industry propogate, you would see the facts point to me being 100% all about "merit".



[Edited by: Hannie59 at 1/30/2013 9:38:27 AM EST]
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Meddig
Rookie Author Buffalo

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Message Posted: Jan 29, 2013 3:13:01 PM

Hannie. you couldn't be more mis-informed than you are. While some of your comments hold some merit, the majority are based on your thoughts and not truth.

"In addition stop fearing E-15. It does not harm anything."

Scary, E15 is not a good choice for anyone to make that has any brains or cares about the longevity of their auto.
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Mr1lung
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Message Posted: Jan 28, 2013 3:00:19 PM

Ok
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skh150
Sophomore Author Denver

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Message Posted: Jan 28, 2013 1:01:16 PM

Dont have it.
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paullypuiu
Veteran Author Georgia

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Message Posted: Jan 26, 2013 10:37:44 PM

heck yes.
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Banjoe
Champion Author Winnipeg

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Message Posted: Jan 26, 2013 9:15:31 PM

Hannie59 - doesn't following these comments just drive you coocoobats?
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grim_farva
Champion Author Kansas

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Message Posted: Jan 26, 2013 9:47:32 AM

I would rather have non ethanol.
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Hannie59
All-Star Author Appleton

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Message Posted: Jan 24, 2013 4:55:53 PM

Rumbleseat... Doesn't the loads of garbage people post just make you wonder how some people can survive? They hear and believe, never doing any actual fact finding. How many miles have been driven on E-10 with vehicles lasting longer and longer all the time, and yet still the nonsense persists as if a car will run any differently on E-15. Good Gollywolly!

[Edited by: Hannie59 at 1/24/2013 5:02:50 PM EST]
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Banjoe
Champion Author Winnipeg

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Message Posted: Jan 24, 2013 8:24:10 AM

rumbleseat - nicley put. Took the words out of my mouth and made them sound quite a bit better too.

Pre-ethanol days saw a lot of alcohol being added to gas tanks to keep that water moving through the system to avoid gas line freeze ups. Once ethanol showed up, that problem became a thing of the past.
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RecklessFire
Sophomore Author Dallas

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Message Posted: Jan 24, 2013 3:50:16 AM

"Non ethanol" is more expensive and is not legal for vehicles. The only places I know to buy it are on docks, and the pumps are for boats only.
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goldseeker
Champion Author West Virginia

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Message Posted: Jan 24, 2013 2:47:12 AM

"I have taken out gas tanks that had more rust in them because the ethanol will collect water and thus start pitting your steel tanks and or gas line (in a car)"

Did you just make that up? There is not a shred of truth in that statement.

I have never seen a steel gas tank that has any age on it that does not show signs of rust. Ethanol does not have a thing to do with it.
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rumbleseat
Champion Author Winnipeg

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Message Posted: Jan 23, 2013 9:05:06 PM

"more rust in them because the ethanol will collect water and thus start pitting your steel tanks and or gas line"

Ah, baloney!
Moisture in your gas tank is from CONDENSATION! That moisture doesn't mix with gasoline, so it can sit in the tank and damage it, or boil or freeze in your gas line, stopping your car cold. This is why products such as gas line antifreeze exist, and they are mostly alcohol!
The alcohol in E10 absorbs the moisture, and carries it through the fuel system and out.
It is pretty simple really, anybody with a rudimentary knowledge of grade school science should know that, but it is far easier to fall for and disseminate propaganda.
Funny, I have been using E10 since 1981, have yet to see such problems, perhaps you can enlighten me as to when I can expect them?
We have E10 in all regular pumps in Manitoba for about 6 years, not just those in Husky and Mohawk stations. Can you enlighten me as to when all the cars in Manitoba can expect to grind to a halt? And will the cars fueled at Husky and Mohawk in the years before all stations carried E10 grind to a halt earlier? LOL!!
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Hannie59
All-Star Author Appleton

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Message Posted: Jan 23, 2013 6:23:58 PM

Skyjunky, you comments are as false as false can be. At least in regards to cars, ethanol does not do any corrosive damage at all unless the vehicle is stationary for several months.

In which case, phase seperation could occur. Even then it may not. It cannot occur in vehicles that are in motion more than once per month.


[Edited by: Hannie59 at 1/23/2013 6:26:18 PM EST]
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Skyjunky
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Message Posted: Jan 23, 2013 10:41:30 AM

I can buy 92% LL NON ETHANOL gas that is cheaper than the junk Arco 10% Ethanol gas stays at about .20 cents cheaper. If that does not work i just go to the Municipal Airport and buy it there...same price?? yes. we cannot burn Gasoline that contains Ethanol in our planes, or matter of fact cars I have taken out gas tanks that had more rust in them because the ethanol will collect water and thus start pitting your steel tanks and or gas line (in a car)
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goldseeker
Champion Author West Virginia

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Message Posted: Jan 22, 2013 7:38:06 AM

Good point. Buy American, buy ethanol.
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