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Author Topic: Whats the cost difference worth of "pure" gas vs. e-10? Back to Topics
nightshade00013

Sophomore Author
Oklahoma

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Message Posted: Dec 1, 2012 7:14:14 AM

So I know a lot of people out there complain that ethanol reduces their MPG's and refuse to use it. My question is at what point is it no longer worth buying the pure gas to those people.

Lets say you get the claimed 30% less MPG's on e-10 that pure gas, but the pure gas costs about 70cents more per gallon than the e-10 which is 2.95. Which one are you going to buy?

The reason why I ask is because right now in OKC e-10 is running about 2.95 yet a station in the same area is running 100% gas at 3.68 and regularly charges 60 to 70cents more per gallon.

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krzysiek_ck
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Jan 23, 2014 1:10:25 PM

ggg452 wrote: "Corn is for food..."

Wrong. Corn is for food and fuel
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ggg452
Champion Author Manitoba

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Message Posted: Jan 23, 2014 9:57:06 AM

Corn is for food...
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borsht
Champion Author Oakland

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Message Posted: Jan 23, 2014 9:52:47 AM

For small engines, like standby power generators, one can't just compare the cost of the fuel. The ethanol separates from the water and you get stratification in the tank and carbureator. It costs me about $200/ year to get my carburators rebuilt.
On my pressure washer with an 8HP engine, I take the whole thing into the shop for repair. my generator, with an 11HP engine I take the carburetor off and take it in. each costs about $100 to get repaired.
With straight gasoline. no ethanor, I never had them completly fail to start. I could put in a little xylene in the line and they would be fine.
I only need my generator about once in 3 years. it sure defeats the purpose when you need it and it won't start.
This is the problem with government mandates. One shoe fits all mentality.
In Californian ethanol free gasoline is essentially unavailable.
Thanks to the corn fuel lovers.
I originally was a pretty strong believe in the ethanol alternative fuel argument. But, when government decided to mandate it, and say sorry to you poor ignorant people that don't know what's best. I began to see the bad side of mandates.

[Edited by: borsht at 1/23/2014 9:57:44 AM EST]
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goldseeker
Champion Author West Virginia

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Message Posted: Jan 23, 2014 4:28:49 AM

"You cannot buy pure ethanol.. E85 also has impunities, and when you combine ethanol with gasoline you simply get the worst of both."

Of course you can buy pure ethanol. Leave out the gasoline and impurities of ethanol goes down.
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SoylentGrain
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Jan 21, 2014 10:36:48 PM

"Putting perfume on BS, you still have BS."

Perhaps it's time for you to stop posting, then.
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borsht
Champion Author Oakland

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Message Posted: Jan 21, 2014 11:20:12 AM

SoylentGrain said " Ethanol on the other hand is a single molecule. It is possible to come close to having pure ethanol. "
This is a straw man statement.
You cannot buy pure ethanol.. E85 also has impunities, and when you combine ethanol with gasoline you simply get the worst of both.
Thus E10 still has all the bad stuff of gasoline.

Putting perfume on BS, you still have BS.
BS stands for Bovine Scatology.
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goldseeker
Champion Author West Virginia

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Message Posted: Jan 18, 2014 10:36:48 AM

e0 is 20-30 cents higher in my region. It is a no brainer what I use.
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SoylentGrain
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Jan 18, 2014 8:04:28 AM

" Pure gas was $0.26 to $0.40 higher cost per gallon."

"Pure gas"? There isn't such a thing. Gasoline is a cocktail of 500 or more chemical compounds. No two batches of gasoline are ever the same. Ethanol on the other hand is a single molecule. It is possible to come close to having pure ethanol.
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n0cf
Sophomore Author Iowa

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Message Posted: Jan 18, 2014 1:10:13 AM

Saw this thread resurrected: currently in Eastern Iowa, Clear 87 octane is $0.15 to $0.19 more expensive than E10/87.
In November the delta was running $0.20 to $0.30 in Eastern Iowa.

In December I ran around three counties in Eastern Tennessee for two weeks. I passed by five stations offering clear 87 octane (3 or 4 had clear 93) in addition to ethanol blended. Pure gas was $0.26 to $0.40 higher cost per gallon.

[Edited by: n0cf at 1/18/2014 1:10:17 AM EST]
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goldseeker
Champion Author West Virginia

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Message Posted: Jan 18, 2014 12:34:37 AM

Pure gas is responsible for thousands of cancer deaths every year. Kind of makes you wonder about the purity of this concoction. Anyone like a shot. At least I can drink ethanol.
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RS101
Champion Author Minnesota

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Message Posted: Jan 17, 2014 7:57:34 PM

Sure...thanks for the info
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Hannie59
All-Star Author Appleton

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Message Posted: Dec 11, 2012 8:44:51 AM

Soylent is correct. How is it that the misinformation is so widely believed about ethanol? People believe it! It's a great fueling option, actually the best we have for blending into gasoline, and many use e-85 to blend with regular and run thier cars at 30% or higher, with great results and less engine and fuel system problems. The misinformation is astounding.
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SoylentGrain
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Dec 11, 2012 8:23:04 AM

Water in regular gasoline is going to cause problems sooner than in E10 or E85.
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goldseeker
Champion Author West Virginia

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Message Posted: Dec 11, 2012 2:51:42 AM

"The undisputed fact is that E10 goes stale quicker than E0. The primary problem is water."

And the real problem is some people just do not have a clue.
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Hannie59
All-Star Author Appleton

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Message Posted: Dec 10, 2012 10:15:25 PM

checkum, alcohol is good for fuel systems, does no harm. It helps your car last longer. You have drunk the kool aid if you still believe that ethanol is bad for cars.

[Edited by: Hannie59 at 12/10/2012 10:17:14 PM EST]
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checkum
Champion Author St. Louis

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Message Posted: Dec 10, 2012 5:26:11 PM

forwhatever it's worth some people are using products that further harm the fuel system as they use a form of alcohol also
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GrumpyCat
Champion Author Alabama

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Message Posted: Dec 10, 2012 4:02:46 PM

"GrumpyCat says "The big issues are water retention, corrosion, and storage." I've never seen a hint of these "big issues" and I've been using E10 for decades. I've stored E10 in a lawnmower over the winter a couple of times and never had a problem starting it."

Well good for you! Everyone gets lucky now and then.

The undisputed fact is that E10 goes stale quicker than E0. The primary problem is water.

When speaking of small engines ignorant journalists fail to recognize the difference between 4-stroke and 2-stroke with oil premix. The problems with premix are significantly worse than with straight gasoline whether its E0 or E10.
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Hannie59
All-Star Author Appleton

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Message Posted: Dec 10, 2012 12:38:46 PM

Here is the difference.

Gasoline is just a collection of waste products that blended together just barely meets fungible specs. Ethanol is the one product that is the same anytime and anywhere.

Use ethanol with confidence and your engine will last much longer running ethanol blended into your refinery waste.

If you use E-10, you will not notice a mileage difference at all on the highway. 3% maybe if all you do is city drive. Non ethanol premium is not as good for your car and certainly not worth the money.


[Edited by: Hannie59 at 12/10/2012 12:44:00 PM EST]
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WEPSMAN
Champion Author South Dakota

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Message Posted: Dec 6, 2012 9:50:10 PM

E10 is usually around .10 cheaper than unleaded without ethanol.
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SilverStreaker
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Dec 6, 2012 11:12:07 AM

RedRider, please show your math so I further mock you. You won't get 9%.

While you are trying to prove the accuracy of your "research study", please also expain why the responses don't add up to 100%.
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RedRider1OK
All-Star Author Oklahoma City

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Message Posted: Dec 6, 2012 8:37:46 AM

Ok, THE RESULTS ARE IN, I ran the #'s on the following parameters:

I used 30% for those who lost more than 30% loss in fuel mileage.
25% for those who lost between 20 and 30%.
15% for those who lost between 10 and 20%.
7.5% for those who lost between 10 and 5%.
2.5% for those who lost between 5 and 0%.
and 0 for those who lost nothing.

The calculations came up to an 8.89% loss on E-10 vs Ethanol free gasoline for the about 10,000 gas buddy members who participated in the poll.

I wonder if they are buying E-10 at least 9% cheaper than ethanol free? In Oklahoma that would not be the case. Ethanol free costs on average a dime more than E-10. At 3.00/gallon that would equate to only a 3.3% difference. That is no where near the almost 9% lost by this Gasbuddy poll.

Question again: Does using Ethanol tainted gasoline (E-10) save you money? According to this official Gasbuddy website's poll. NO!

Argue that with the 10,000 members who participated in the poll!


[Edited by: RedRider1OK at 12/6/2012 8:38:57 AM EST]
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goldseeker
Champion Author West Virginia

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Message Posted: Dec 6, 2012 3:27:46 AM

I wouldn't worry too much about reds opinion. He has been the king of whoppers in here for several years.
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SilverStreaker
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Dec 5, 2012 10:55:08 PM

RedRider1OK says "For those who could knowingly test both fuels it appears the average fuel loss for using E-10 is about 10%."

You don't know the difference between "research" and an opinion poll and you don't have a clue how to interpret an opinion poll. Let's start with the question that got the most responses "I can't tell or I have no access to pure gas". These are two separate questions and half of the question sounds similar to "No difference". We'll never know how many people who couldn't tell any difference responded to the last instead of the first.

Of those who didn't select the last question, about a third of the participants said they experienced less than a 5% loss, about a third said 5-10%, and about a third said more than 10%. If you weighted the responses, you would likely come up with around 6-7% as a mean.

But this is not "research" or a "study". It's only an opinion poll.
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RedRider1OK
All-Star Author Oklahoma City

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Message Posted: Dec 5, 2012 9:14:28 PM

Here's some research numbers from this site for 15,237 drivers:

How much mileage loss have you experienced using E-10 (10% ethanol) fuel versus pure gasoline?

For those who could knowingly test both fuels it appears the average fuel loss for using E-10 is about 10%. Anyone want to run the actual #'s on this study?

One point to note: Anyone losing 10% or more on E-10 is actually increasing our dependence on oil (domestic and/ or foreign). So the real question should be "Does using E-10 actually reduce our dependency on Oil?"
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Samjuj
Rookie Author Georgia

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Message Posted: Dec 5, 2012 8:21:14 PM

There should be actual research numbers somewhere out there...
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wrmedic
Champion Author Nebraska

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Message Posted: Dec 5, 2012 8:07:17 PM

Ethanol here in the midwest is generally a dime cheaper and I have checked my mileage and the ethanol with the price difference is well worth it.
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stickyvalves
Champion Author Iowa

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Message Posted: Dec 5, 2012 10:34:39 AM

Check your own fuel mileage on each fuel. You should test each fuel on at least a 2000 mile time period because of varying conditions.

My experience is losing 2-3% mileage, not 30%. Thus any price differential of less that 3% causes me to buy nolead. Otherwise I always burn gasohol (E10). In Iowa, that differential is a pretty consistent dime, thus gasohol is the fuel of choice for me.

In the end you must calculate your gas costs on a cost per mile basis, not miles per gallon.
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goldseeker
Champion Author West Virginia

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Message Posted: Dec 5, 2012 3:07:30 AM

I wouldn't worry too much about the negatives that you here. They are either lies or gross exaggerations.
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RedRider1OK
All-Star Author Oklahoma City

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Message Posted: Dec 4, 2012 10:32:37 PM

100% ethanol free gasoline can be purchased in Oklahoma City for 2.97 today, which is only 2 cents more than the 2.95 E-10 you are mentioning. 3.68 ? Well if you want to buy from a full service Shell station that is always 60 to 75 cents higher than the market than go ahead. That station is not the norm. Most stations in the OKC metro sell ethanol free gasoline about 10 cents more than E-10.

Check your fuel mileage on the two fuels and decide which one saves you $. If you loose 10% on E-10 then plan on buying it 30 cents cheaper than ethanol free gasoline (at 3.00 gallon) just to break even on your purchases.
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SilverStreaker
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Dec 4, 2012 4:16:47 PM

GrumpyCat says "The big issues are water retention, corrosion, and storage." I've never seen a hint of these "big issues" and I've been using E10 for decades. I've stored E10 in a lawnmower over the winter a couple of times and never had a problem starting it.
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GrumpyCat
Champion Author Alabama

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Message Posted: Dec 4, 2012 2:59:30 PM

"Lets say you get the claimed 30% less MPG's on e-10 that (sic) pure gas" ...

You are drinking Kool-Aide. 20% to 30% is the hit for E85. 1% to 3% is the hit for E10.

MPG is one of the minor issues with E10. The big issues are water retention, corrosion, and storage. Which are all pretty much the same problem when you get down to the details.
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SilverStreaker
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Dec 4, 2012 12:03:21 PM

nightshade00013, like you, I've used E10 for decades without any problems. I've used high ethanol blends in vehicles and have seen no significant change in mileage at any blend I've used.
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Dennis783
Champion Author Des Moines

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Message Posted: Dec 4, 2012 8:16:04 AM

here it is 13cents difference
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Maintroll
Champion Author Lexington

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Message Posted: Dec 4, 2012 5:37:05 AM

Don't worry about the cost, good luck in even finding any whole gas.
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goldseeker
Champion Author West Virginia

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Message Posted: Dec 4, 2012 2:57:48 AM

"I know a man who owns a lawn mower/tractor repair business nearby for 45 years. Fuel problems such as damaged carbs, water in the fuel and general poor engine performance are the norm now with ethanol, according to him."

Actually you know a man who has been brainwashed by the negative campaign against ethanol, funded and promoted by big oil.

It is amazing that ethanol has never damaged any of my small engines! What you and your friend fail to recognize is that about the same time that ethanol was added to gas other common components of gasoline such as benzene, toulene, and xylene were also added to gas. If you will check the compatibility issues of ethanol, vs these components, you will see that ethanol comes out squeaky clean.
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goldseeker
Champion Author West Virginia

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Message Posted: Dec 4, 2012 2:57:48 AM

"I know a man who owns a lawn mower/tractor repair business nearby for 45 years. Fuel problems such as damaged carbs, water in the fuel and general poor engine performance are the norm now with ethanol, according to him."

Actually you know a man who has been brainwashed by the negative campaign against ethanol, funded and promoted by big oil.

It is amazing that ethanol has never damaged any of my small engines! What you and your friend fail to recognize is that about the same time that ethanol was added to gas other common components of gasoline such as benzene, toulene, and xylene were also added to gas. If you will check the compatibility issues of ethanol, vs these components, you will see that ethanol comes out squeaky clean.
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nightshade00013
Sophomore Author Oklahoma

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Message Posted: Dec 4, 2012 1:21:03 AM

I agree that ethanol does not cause much if any MPG loss but I have to put the question out there because I see the huge price differences and know that someone out there pays the higher price for non ethanol fuels.

In my statement of "pure gas" I am only using what the stations here put signs up stating. They advertise "pure gas" as a way of saying they don't have ethanol included.

As for small engines that was not my point. A small engine that uses 3 or 4 gallons a season for a normal persons lawn usage is minimal impact on the wallet and using a non ethanol fuel is fine if that is what you want to do.

I am asking exactly this, if you drive a vehicle and pay 40 to 60 cents more per gallon on the idea you get better fuel economy is it really worth it?

Say a vehicle is driven 15,000 miles a year and gets 25 MPG average. If the price of fuel for an Ethanol blend is 3.00 per gallon and a non-ethanol fuel is 3.50 per gallon the cost to drive that vehicle per year is $1800 for an ethanol blended fuel and $2100 for the non ethanol fuel or $300 more per year to get around. Break that down and the Ethanol blended fuel costs 12 cents per mile driven and the non ethanol fuel costs 14 cents per mile.

Even a 5% reduction in MPG AVERAGE over a year will not amount to much more than a few gallons of fuel so WHY do people spend their money to get the same results?

I have purchased and ran an e-10 ethanol fuel since the mid 90's when I started driving and will continue to do so, I support it and learned about it early on and will continue to use it as long as it's cost effective.
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huskers8780
Rookie Author Nebraska

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Message Posted: Dec 3, 2012 9:07:36 PM

e 10 here in nebraska is only a 10 cent difference from 87 regular gas. It is amazing how any people still buy the e 10 thought because of the 10 cent difference.
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Titanic1985
Champion Author South Carolina

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Message Posted: Dec 3, 2012 8:23:53 PM

Hello nightshad00013. A local truck stop renovated this spring and added E-0 (non-ethanol) 87 Octane gasoline. Since April, I use it for both my 2012 Chevrolet Sonic and lawn equipment. You asked, "My question is at what point is it no longer worth buying the pure gas to those people?" The answer is subjective to your personal perspective. This truck stop changes prices up to four times a day. E-0 has varied in price from below 87 Octane Regular E-10 to above 91 Octane Premium E-10. The cash and credit price are always identical. Rumbleseat & goldseeker are very correct in their statements. The most MPG improvement of E-0 is 4% to 6%. You will never see 30% fuel economy improvement!

Here is what makes E-0 worth it for me, damaged lawn equipment. I own ten acres of land and have many high dollar pieces of lawn equipment. Until E-0 came along, I had one Honda carb and one Briggs & Stratton carb literally get the metal eaten away even draining the system for winter storage and using Stabil-It in the fuel. One carb cost $75 and the other $50. I just purchased a commercial grade chipper/shredder with a commercial grade Honda engine. Honda discourages use of E-10 and states E-15 will damage the engine and void the warranty.

I know a man who owns a lawn mower/tractor repair business nearby for 45 years. Fuel problems such as damaged carbs, water in the fuel and general poor engine performance are the norm now with ethanol, according to him.

As I said earlier, it is a matter of personal perspective. Best Wishes :-) MGY
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rumbleseat
Champion Author Winnipeg

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Message Posted: Dec 3, 2012 6:09:21 AM

For one thing, that question is not answerable, because there is no such thing as "pure" gas.
If there was, your car wouldn't run on it, there are all kinds of additives and booster in the fuel at the pump, none of which are fit for human consumption.
For another, if you actually manage to get 30% fewer miles per gallon on E10 than E0, either there is something seriously in need of adjustment or replacement on your vehicle, or you are seriously driving differently and idling longer to skew the figures, or BOTH.
Mind you, what would I know, I have only been using E10 since 1981!
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goldseeker
Champion Author West Virginia

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Message Posted: Dec 3, 2012 1:01:10 AM

"Lets say you get the claimed 30% less MPG's on e-10 that pure gas" That is an outrageous statement. Nobody loses 30% on E10. Most lose little or nothing. 5% would be closer for those that do lose anything.

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