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Author Topic: Industry hails court decision rejecting legal challenges of E15 Back to Topics
gamechanger2011

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Message Posted: Aug 17, 2012 2:19:24 PM



"The Renewable Fuels Association also provided a statement. This morning the appeals court sided with the EPA and its partial waiver approval for E15 ethanol fuel for model year 2001 and newer light duty vehicles and all flex fuel vehicles, RFA said. This represents nearly two-thirds of all vehicles on the road and almost 75 percent of vehicle miles driven."

Industry hails court decision rejecting legal challenges of E15
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SilverStreaker
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Message Posted: Oct 11, 2012 10:31:52 PM

Thanks, tropicalmn. Looks like Gevo is also looking into cellulosic biobutanol.
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tropicalmn
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Message Posted: Oct 11, 2012 9:42:25 PM

SilverStreaker, Land O’Lakes Purina Feed is suppose to be the exclusive marketer of Gevo’s isobutanol dried and modified wet distillers grains for the animal feed market at Luverne,MN. The plant has had problems after initially making isobutanol(believed to be related to the yeast) and have switched back to making ethanol until they solve the problem.
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SilverStreaker
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Message Posted: Oct 11, 2012 3:33:32 PM

I would have no problem putting butanol in my car. As brerrabbitTX points out, it all comes down to cost. Distillers grains help keep the cost of ethanol manufacturing down, but I don't think distillers grains produced from butanol could be fed to cattle.
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krzysiek_ck
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Message Posted: Oct 11, 2012 12:46:14 PM

"The octane rating of n-butanol is similar to that of gasoline but lower than that of ethanol and methanol. n-Butanol has a RON (Research Octane number) of 96 and a MON (Motor octane number) of 78 while t-butanol has octane ratings of 105 RON and 89 MON. t-Butanol is used as an additive in gasoline but cannot be used as a fuel in its pure form because its relatively high melting point of 25.5 °C causes it to gel and freeze near room temperature."

Butanol as green biofuel

Just to add to this, n-Butanol MON rating is lower than gasoline and that could be a potential problem. t-Butanol as additive could work though.
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Shockjock1961
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Message Posted: Oct 11, 2012 12:29:30 PM

Actually, butanol makes a better substitute then ethanol.

It's energy content is closer to gasoline then is ethanol.
It's air/fuel ratio requirements are closer to gasoline then is ethanol.
It's vaporization point is closer to gasoline then is ethanol.
You can use the same pipelines for butanol as are used by petroleum products since it doesn't absorb moisture like ethanol does...
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gamechanger2011
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Message Posted: Oct 11, 2012 12:21:12 PM

brerrabbitt.."As I started this post I agree that oil doesn't last forever but guess what? It's here today, the infrastructure is in place and for the most part it is available and reliable."

I do agree with this. Part of my argument for supporting ethanol now is to build the infrastructure. We have a vast amount of vehicles on the road today that have flex capability. We also have more and more stations that are working on offering ethanol blends. That's why I support the RFS....we need to keep building infrastructure. We can use ethanol today with the current one. What other alternative can would you suggest that we could use right now, at this moment? Do you have a better one?
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brerrabbitTX
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Message Posted: Oct 10, 2012 4:22:07 PM

Sure we will run out of crude someday, no doubt. As an industry we do not fear running out or diminishing reseveres because quite frankly no one really knows how much there is. Reserve numbers fluctuate all the time because all that is reported for the most part is proven producing numbers. Virtually no one provides potential numbers because quite frankly they would be wrong and a guess anyway.

You like many others that support ethanol at all cost don't listen to what others say. I have never said that ethanol is not at least a partial solution. What I have said and will say again is any transition to an alternate fuel will be gradual, come over a longer period of time, and will be costly. I am actually an advocate of searching for an alternative fuel but am also pragmatic enough to not have made my choice drank the Koolaide and jumped on the bandwagon. We nee alternatives yes! But no one and nothing has convinced me that ethanol is the end all be all solution.

You may certainly advocate the greater good of ethanol and be concerned with future generations and that is quite noble of you. However the vast majority of the people on this board and the people across this country are primarily concerned with two things. 1. Above all else cost, 2. availability, and 3. reliability.

So as we evaluate any possible alternative to petroleum based fuels most if not all fail on one or more levels based on the three point scale above. While it can be argued ethanol is cheaper than gas today (forgetting energy equivilancy) that cannot be said going forward because of infrastructure costs. Further it will take time to build plants, crank up production and get to a point where enough is available to meet current and future demand.

As I started this post I agree that oil doesn't last forever but guess what? It's here today, the infrastructure is in place and for the most part it is available and reliable. Cost can be debated all you want but you cannot compare cost and availability of ethanol in the corn belt vs cost and availabilty across the entire country in the quantities necessary.

Your view is micro while working for a company that sells the amount of fuel we sell our view is macro. Yes you can say all you want we sell oil products so we are oppsed to ethanol but that's not really true. What is true is that oil products can meet the demand for fuel all across the country today while no other fuel source can.

We as an oil company have an obligation of sorts to delivery the fuel that runs America's fleet today while you are advocating a fuel of the future. That's fine, we need to look to the future, but don't ignore the reality that is today.

Finally while ethanol may be the future, the US government pushing down peoples throats via legislation does not help. How ironic would it be if a fuel source is discovered that could meet our needs at a fair price into the future that was not ethanol. I would hope those who pushed the legislation that is the clean fuels act through would feel a little foolish.
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Shockjock1961
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Message Posted: Oct 10, 2012 2:08:28 PM

"And I will ask you what will happen when we someday run out of crude reserves. Do you just want to leave that problem for another generation to deal with? When crude runs out...it's out. Ethanol is a renewable fuel."

Only partially correct. How are you going to produce ethanol when fossil fuels run out? After all oil and gas are currently essential to the production of ethanol...
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gamechanger2011
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Message Posted: Oct 10, 2012 1:47:36 PM

brerrabbitTX..."I have asked it before on this board and got no answer but will ask it again, on average this country burns a tremendous amount of gas to fuel vehicles everyday. If you want an all ethanol world in the future where is all that ethanol going to come from? I have never got an answer."

And I will ask you what will happen when we someday run out of crude reserves. Do you just want to leave that problem for another generation to deal with? When crude runs out...it's out. Ethanol is a renewable fuel. Surely blending gas and ethanol will delay the inevitable depletion of world crude supplies.

I know that most of you on this site have no faith in cellulosic ethanol, but someday we will be making ethanol out of even trash. There are companies working on this as we speak. There is a great documentary called "The Freedom Film", where they go to a plant that is doing just that.

I for one refuse to sit on my laurels and leave my great, great, grandchildren with this problem because we were too greedy and lazy to start working on the problem before it hits.

I have a family member that works for a major oil company, and one thing that you guys know but won't admit, is that crude reserves are running low. China and India's use will only continue to grow. This problem will only get worse.
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Shockjock1961
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Message Posted: Oct 9, 2012 4:49:33 PM

"Debate ethanol vs gas all you want"

Is there a reason to debate ethanol vs gas? I, myself would have no problem with ethanol, if the government would simply get rid of the minimum usage mandate, and let the market decide through sales on whether it is a viable alternative fuel or not...
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brerrabbitTX
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Message Posted: Oct 9, 2012 4:16:50 PM

Two topics are running the same direction on this subject but I just wanted to set the record straight in one regard. Everyone thinks that oil companies are anti ethanol. I can assure you we are not.Mostly the oil companies are business people. They are looking to sell a product for a fair return regardless of all the accusations of greed and dirty dealing.

The bottom line is the bottom line for the industry. It is an industry that employes millions of people worldwide. It provides a good living for most of those millions and contributes literally billions in taxes and fees all over the world. They are ongoing business concerns that look to the future with the intent of staying in business and staying profitable. If that means selling gas then they sell gas, if it means selling ethanol then they will sell ethanol. Heck if it meant selling sunflower seed oil then by god they would sell that.

The true driving factor in all this is not what fuel is more effcient, what fuel is better, or what fuel is greener. More than anything it is what fuel is most readily available, has an infrastructure that supports it and belive it or not what is the cheapest alternative. Right now there is not enough ethanol, no infrastructure and while it's current cost is cheaper than gas it's energy potential is less than gas. That is reflected in the price. I won't get into a debate about the difference in energy content because the reality is I am not a researcher and not a scientist. I am a business person and an analyst and to me the value of ethanol vs gas is not a scientific calculation. It is evident every day of the week based on what the market says it is.

Build a house and spend $1 million to do it, but when the time comes to sell it what it is worth is a function of what a buyer is willing to pay. If the top dollar a buyer will pay is $500,000 then guess what? Your house is worth $500,000 period end of sentence. Same with ethanol. It's value difference is the value that a buyer will pay for ethanol vs what they will pay for gas and is defined every day the prices are published.

Debate ethanol vs gas all you want. Till you start talking market value implementation costs, infrastructure costs and availability of supply you are not having a realistic discussion of the future of ethanol in this country. Your just spitting in the wind.
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brerrabbitTX
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Message Posted: Oct 9, 2012 11:22:28 AM

Don't work for P66 or Conoco. As far as hating ethanol, I have nothing against it at all. Certainly my company is not an advocate of it because we sell gasoline and buy all the ethanol we blend. However that being said as a major oil company we are in the business of selling fuel. If the world changes and the fuel of choice becomes ethanol then I can assure you we will sell a bunch of ethanol.

The industry I work in has invested and continues to invest billions if not trillions of dollars in production and infrastructure. They look at trends and have more data ammased than one person can read in a lifetime about ethanol, trends, research, etc. If you look at annual reports you will see that big oil is one of the largest spenders in alternative fuel research. To say big oil does not like ethanol is like saying people don't hot dogs. Some do, some don't but either way you cannot ignore the reality that they exsist.

Part of the resistance is plain and simple. When the EPA announced it was going to allow 15% blending one of the leaders of the pro ethanol group was quoted right out of the chute saying he did not think they could make enough of it to supply all gas sold in the US with 15% ethanol. The government has mandated it's use, set requirements and last year fined the petroleum sellers $14 million for failure to use enough cellulosic ethanol even though the product was not commercially available in the quantities needed. There is such a thing as a blending wall given current technology. Cellulosic ethanol is expensive. No matter how many articles people can pull out of the air about it and strides being made it is still strugguling greatly to be cost effective. How does big oil know that much about cellulosic ethanol? Because a lot of them fund the research and are active partners in looking for the cost effective enzymes to make cost effective product. They have some of the greatest minds working on the problem and what those minds are saying is we are having a really hard time finding the answer and we think it is a great number of years away.

The government has made the importation of ethanol more difficult. I have no desire to discuss why the government instituted 50 cents a gallon tariffs on ethanol merely the fact that they have has put another barrier to entry for larger ethanol concentrations. Look at how much ethanol we produce. Look at how much we can potentially produce, and I am talking about now, not including cellulosic, not including imports, not including potential future sources, but now, today.

Now look at how much fuel this country burns and compare the two. THere's a wee bit of a shortfall there. In the meantime people need to drive to work and good or bad, like it or not the oil companies are the ones who have to deliver today, not 5 years from now. The fuel of choice is gas.

Now lets assume there is a break through in ethanol production research and we can produce more. How long to build all the new plants to make it? Who pays for all those plants? How do you transport it? Dispite research no one has come up with a reliable way to pipe ethanol. What about gas stations? Over 200,000 across the country and you cannot snap your fingers and convert to ethanol over night so you will still need to be able to pump gas. Anything built in the past 12 years (since new EPA tank regulations were enacted) in the way of a gas station has two tanks (three if they sell diesel also) To be able to pump both e-15 and e10 you will need a third tank to blend e-85 to get the two concentrations and even then you would have a hard time having multiple octanes. All those extra e-85 tanks will cost a lot of money. The problem is the conversion to an ethanol heavy world will require a huge amount of capital (full industry estimates run into the trillions of dollars). When you take the current cost of ethanol, take away the RENS credit which is still given, add the cost of capital to convert and put ethanol in the drivers seat as far as being the fuel of choice then you have a cost equivalent to gas today or according to many estimates more expensive than today.

So at the end of the day a full ethanol conversion boils down to trading the devil you know (oil and gas) for the devil you don't know (ethanol, and by default the same oil companies you hate today because the conversion to ethanol does not mean they are going away).

You are looking at what you feel is best for your customers, and your business given it's situation and location. That's fine, that's what your suppose to do. The problem is when you try to extend your specific circumstance to the nation as a whole the numbers get really big, the costs get really big and global issues start effecting your logic.

I have asked it before on this board and got no answer but will ask it again, on average this country burns a tremendous amount of gas to fuel vehicles everyday. If you want an all ethanol world in the future where is all that ethanol going to come from? I have never got an answer.
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Shockjock1961
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Message Posted: Oct 9, 2012 10:49:52 AM

"The E.P.A. has approved the use of E15 fuel in cars of the model year 2001 or later. Automakers say they are not convinced that the fuel is entirely safe for engines and warn that if it causes damage to engines or fuel systems, that damage will not be covered by warranties."

Found right in the link provided by GC.

brerrabbitTX has the right idea. If you value your warranty, don't use E15 if it's not approved in your owners manual...

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gamechanger2011
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Message Posted: Oct 9, 2012 10:17:05 AM

brerrabbittTX...I have wondered if you are someone that I have met at Phillips. All nice people, I have nothing bad to say about the Concoco/Phillips people. But you guys don't like the ethanol movement.
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gamechanger2011
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Message Posted: Oct 9, 2012 10:05:22 AM

brerrabbittTX...the difference is that we are dispensing out of blender pumps. We have the EPA disclaimer and everything labeled. My spouse used to be a major customer of several Big Oil companies. I saw first hand how they despised the ethanol movement and tried to discourage him when he started trying to carry it. I'm guessing you work for Conoco, now Phillips since you are based out of Houston. I've met and been around many high ranking Phillips people. I know the deal.
The problem with some posting on E15, is a lack of knowledge about what the issues are. There is one "jobber in Kansas that is dispensing out of the black hose, which is the same hose that E10 is dispensed out of. A big deal has been made about that. Even the NY Times came to Kansas to cover the store. We are dispensing out of the yellow hose, which is the hose that ethanol blends are dispensed out of. We are involved with the Kansas Corn Commission and an ethanol plant in carrying the E15. We did not just decide all of a sudden to do this on our own.
It is very important what is going on with the Auto Manufacturers. I never encourage anyone to void their warranty. If Ford is going to warranty autos as far back as 2010, that's important information.
I recently was at a function where the guy that is carrying E15 through his black hoses and asked him if he is selling much. He said that he is, there a price break for E15 versus E10 and people are very price sensitive these days.
E15 Fuel Reaches the Masses (at One Station)
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brerrabbitTX
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Message Posted: Oct 9, 2012 9:06:01 AM

"brerabbitTx...since we sell E15 at one location, this information is our job to know. Until last week this information had not been released, at least to our knowledge. If it is true in fact that Ford made this decision at the end of last year, and is including model years 2010, that's important information. GM and Ford's decision is very big news for those of us that are actually carrying E15."

Well I work in the retail fuel industry as well for a major oil company, and it is our job to know certain things as well. We no longer operate retail sites but brand dealers who do and sell lots of fuel to them. I will tell you the same thing I told another dealer on the General Gas Talk page when he was advocating that all cars run fine on 87 octane gas. As a dealer if a customer asks what fuel he should use my standard response in every case, bar none would be use the fuel that your owners manual says to use, period end of sentence. Yes you can point to articles where Ford has said they will allow e-15 in 2010 year models and later. Yes you can point to articles that say both Ford and GM say you can use e-15 in 2012 and later models. But my question to you is this, why would you ever for one second consider giving advice to a customer about what fuel they should use in their car other than to say "use what you owners manual says to use"

Other posters on this board acknowledge they play with different blends to achieve what they consider their optimal blend. If they had exsisting warrenty left on their vehicle then they have voided it if the manufacturer recommends or calls for a maximum of e-10. Their actions effect only themselves.

You on the other hand could give a customer advice and that advice could potentially void a warrenty for a customer. In the litigious world we live in that customer will more than likely come back to you who said "yeah Ford is fine with e-15 in that model". He will sue you, you may lose. You may significantly hurt your business. Why risk it?

My company has issued legal statements to all dealers who fly our brand and in a nutshell it says "When questioned about what fuel to use in a specific vehicle, be it what octane, what ethanol concentration, what type of diesel to use, the correct answer in every situation is use the type fuel that is required by the manufacturer of your particuler vehicle which can usually be found in your owners manual."

To do anything less is to great of a financial risk for your business.

Further most major terminaling companies in the country have issued statements saying that they do not have e-15 blends available and will not certify any of their products for additional blending with ethanol. In otherwords e-10 is what leaves our terminal and we certify it. If between our terminal and your station it becomes e-15 then we do not certify it and you are on your own for any and all issues that arise as a result of it's use.

Companies making these declarations include Magellan, Nu Star, Buckeye, Marathon, Valero, Motiva, Flint Hills, Tesoro, Chevron, Phillips 66, Exxon, BP, Truman Arnold, and Colonial.

Proceed any way you want to but as far as the major players in the industry they are and will continue to proceed with caution.
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gamechanger2011
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Message Posted: Oct 8, 2012 10:01:34 PM

brerabbitTx...since we sell E15 at one location, this information is our job to know. Until last week this information had not been released, at least to our knowledge. If it is true in fact that Ford made this decision at the end of last year, and is including model years 2010, that's important information. GM and Ford's decision is very big news for those of us that are actually carrying E15.
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brerrabbitTX
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Message Posted: Oct 8, 2012 1:45:45 PM

I won't comment on any one's intelligence because that was not the motivation for my first post.

All I saw and all I see in a lot of posts here on the Ethanol Board go the way this one does. This topic is about the Auto Industry acknowledging the use of e-15 in it's vehicles. One side says "see I told you so" The other side says it's for 2012 and newer and the reply is yeah but in this article Ford said 2010 and newer and the EPA says 2001 and newer. The article linked says Ford and GM will allow e-15 in 2012 and newer because they have modified their vehicles to accept it. Then someone calls out the anti ethanol cheerleader to say "tell me what changes they made" Well not defending anyone but as I read it the guy is quoting directly from the article and I would have said the same thing. Ask me about changes and I would say I don't have the foggiest idea what they did, I am just quoting what the article said that the spokes person said.

Going back to my original point, I say that you should use what the manual says you should use. The owners manual you linked to said use cleaner burning fuel which include fuels with ethanol or MTBE. It further said in that owners manual to limit percentages of ethanol to 10% and MTBE to 15%.

So to my original point I would not use e-15 in that vehicle for fear of voiding the warrenty. Now I cannot say the manual said do not use pure gas, as it did say you should use cleaner burning fuel. But then again I take that with a grain of salt because since I work in the fuel industry I can tell you that MTBE is prohibited for use anywhere in the US. So what I garner from the owners manual is you can use up to e-10 or up to 15% MTBE which is a known carginagen and illeagal for use in the US.

If I owned the car I would use no more than e-10 to keep the warrenty and would never consiously use MTBE because that's against the law.
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krzysiek_ck
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Message Posted: Oct 8, 2012 1:11:38 PM

brerrabbitTX wrote: "Most people I am willing to bet unlike yourself will and probably do simply read the owners manual and do what it says. Your experimentation as well as several others on this board who are passonate about hitting their own optimal blend ratios are in the very small minority. I am willing to bet a very high percentage just do what the manual says. I don't think it's a function of intelligence but rather most people wanting to make sure their warrenty stays in effect."

The Toyota Prius, that Shockjock1961 drives, owners manual recommends using cleaner burning gasoline and he/she know it.

"Toyota recommends the use of cleaner burning gasoline
Cleaner burning gasoline, including reformulated gasoline that contains oxygenates such as ethanol or MTBE (Methyl Tertiary Butyl Ether) is available in many areas.
Toyota recommends the use of cleaner burning gasoline and appropriately blended reformulated gasoline. These types of gasoline provide excellent vehicle performance, reduce vehicle emissions and improve air quality."

Toyota Prius Owners Manual

How would you judge Shockjock1961's intelligence based on his/hers own statement?

[Edited by: krzysiek_ck at 10/8/2012 1:12:14 PM EST]
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brerrabbitTX
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Message Posted: Oct 8, 2012 12:42:34 PM

Wrong. The most intelligent people do their own testing to determine what works the best for them. What is your personal experience with different Ethanol mixtures?

Most people I am willing to bet unlike yourself will and probably do simply read the owners manual and do what it says. Your experimentation as well as several others on this board who are passonate about hitting their own optimal blend ratios are in the very small minority. I am willing to bet a very high percentage just do what the manual says. I don't think it's a function of intelligence but rather most people wanting to make sure their warrenty stays in effect.
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brerrabbitTX
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Message Posted: Oct 8, 2012 12:38:38 PM

"Ford has approved E15 for as far back at model years 2010 according to this source."

And again while this is antidotal information I would not use e-15 in a vehicle whose owners manual said use no more than e-10. The point of my earlier post w and is simply for 99% of the drivers in the US, use what the owners manual says to make sure your warrenty stays in effect.
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gamechanger2011
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Message Posted: Oct 8, 2012 12:15:19 PM

Ford has approved E15 for as far back at model years 2010 according to this source.

FORD AND GM OKAY E15 BLENDS FOR NEW VEHICLES

[Edited by: gamechanger2011 at 10/8/2012 12:15:54 PM EST]
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krzysiek_ck
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Message Posted: Oct 8, 2012 11:37:19 AM

Shockjock1961 wrote: "Given the option, most intelligent people would opt for E0 over E10, or E15..."

Wrong. The most intelligent people do their own testing to determine what works the best for them. What is your personal experience with different Ethanol mixtures?
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Shockjock1961
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Message Posted: Oct 8, 2012 11:30:17 AM

"It's going to make a big difference down the road"

Only if we are forced to use E15. Given the option, most intelligent people would opt for E0 over E10, or E15...
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gamechanger2011
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Message Posted: Oct 8, 2012 10:22:05 AM

brerrabbitt TX...I agree with you! But it makes sense that only 99% that are not affected by this, will change as more and more 2012 and 2013 and future model years are purchased. It's going to make a big difference down the road.

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brerrabbitTX
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Message Posted: Oct 8, 2012 9:36:13 AM

I really never understand these discussions and back and forths on topics like this.

Read what is said, it's that simple. GM and Ford said okay to 15% ethanol for their 2012 and forward vehicles. They said E-10 for 2011 and back. That's all that was said.

Others may but I won't get into a discussion of what vehicles and what year models can and cannot burn what. I have read people on this board that claim they run up to E-85 in vehicles that manufacturers say should not use anything greater than e-10. I have no reason to not belive them. Good for them. The point as it is and always has been that if you have any warrenty left on your vehicle that you may want to take advantage of then it would probably behove you to burn the fuel that the owners manual calls for. So if it says no more than e-10 then don't use anything more than e-10. If your warrenty has expired, or you don't care if the manufacturer will perform warrenty work on your vehicleor not then buy and use anything you want.

I am not a wrench head and will not involve myself in long discussions of why or why not a fuel with higher concentration of ethanol is okay or not for certain vehicles. I do not care if there were or were not modifications to the 2012 vehicles to allow it to saftley use e-15 or not. That is all discussions others can have.

I simply read what the maufacturers have said which is pretty simply stated e-15 for 2012 and on, e-10 for 2011 and older if you want to maintain your warrenty.

Beyond that is all technical back and forth that is meaningless to 99% of vehicle owners in this country.
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krzysiek_ck
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Message Posted: Oct 8, 2012 8:32:14 AM

reb4 wrote: "What quotes would The ethanol group like to use?"

Which you cannot interpret properly or you are purposely making stuff up. Which one is it?
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reb4
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Message Posted: Oct 8, 2012 8:21:54 AM

the quotes are from "Ford spokesman Richard Truett." and Gm's Communications spoeswoman Sharon K. Basel...

What quotes would The ethanol group like to use?
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SilverStreaker
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Message Posted: Oct 7, 2012 10:46:42 PM

Shockjock1961, nice blog! Did you make it yourself?
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krzysiek_ck
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Message Posted: Oct 7, 2012 10:04:28 PM

reb4 wrote: "So GM Designed it's new vehicles..."

So now you claim GM designed a new vehicle line. What new vehicle line(s) are you talking about?
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krzysiek_ck
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Message Posted: Oct 7, 2012 9:55:51 PM

Shockjock1961 wrote: "Now as to what those modifications are, well, you will have to ask GM and Ford that..."

3. Back up your arguments with facts. Where possible, facts should be supported by a link to a respected Internet source.

General Forum Guidelines

I'm still waiting Shockjock1961 for you to provide the supporting material to your claim.
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reb4
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Message Posted: Oct 7, 2012 9:21:33 PM

FORD AND GM OKAY E15 BLENDS FOR NEW VEHICLES ...

"Most auto manufacturers have opposed the blend, warning that gassing up with it will void their vehicle warranties. The auto industry has called for more testing of the new fuel, concerned about the effect a higher concentration of alcohol might have on vehicle engines. "

From GM:
"--GM's 2012 and 2013 model-year vehicles can use gasoline blends with up to 15% ethanol. The automaker states the policy in its new vehicle owners' manuals, spokeswoman Sharon Basel told Oil Express"
"Basel said that as E15 continued to advance through regulatory channels, GM designed its new vehicles to "perform efficiently" with the fuel if it became more available.

"We are focused on securing a safe and trouble-free driving experience for our customers and this modification prepares our vehicles for the potential intro of an E15 blend," she said. "

So GM Designed it's new vehicles... "this modification" Now, regarding the older vehicles what does GM say:

"As part of an industry group, GM performed multiple tests of E15 in vehicles, including model years 2001 to 2011. The tests found E15 damages the older vehicles' engines, said Basel.

"For model-year 2011 or earlier vehicles we strongly recommend that GM customers refer to their owners manuals for the proper fuel designation for their vehicles," she said. "In fact, we recommend this across the board."

If you read the information from the link, you will find other quotes similar from the Ford representative.

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Shockjock1961
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Message Posted: Oct 7, 2012 9:17:00 PM

“We are focused on securing a safe and trouble-free driving experience for our customers and this modification prepares our vehicles for the potential intro of an E15 blend,”

Now as to what those modifications are, well, you will have to ask GM and Ford that...

[Edited by: Shockjock1961 at 10/7/2012 9:20:46 PM EST]
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SilverStreaker
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Message Posted: Oct 7, 2012 8:08:11 PM

Don't hold your breath...
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gamechanger2011
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Message Posted: Oct 7, 2012 8:00:32 PM

Crickets for sure....
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krzysiek_ck
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Message Posted: Oct 7, 2012 7:58:40 PM

I hear crickets from Shockjock1961.

What exactly did Fort and GM modified in their newer vehicles? I'm still waiting for the answer Shockjock1961.

[Edited by: krzysiek_ck at 10/7/2012 7:59:04 PM EST]
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gamechanger2011
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Message Posted: Oct 7, 2012 3:15:58 PM

Shocky....what modifications? Where is a link to your claim?
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krzysiek_ck
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Message Posted: Oct 7, 2012 11:26:21 AM

reb4 wrote: "The tests found E15 damages the older vehicles’ engines, said Basel."

What exact tests are you talking about?
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krzysiek_ck
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Message Posted: Oct 7, 2012 11:24:10 AM

Shockjock1961 wrote: "GM and ford have modified their newer vehicles to make them compatible with E15."

What exactly did Fort and GM modified in their newer vehicles? I'm still waiting for the answer Shockjock1961.
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Shockjock1961
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Message Posted: Oct 7, 2012 10:25:47 AM

"Rididculous argument. Nobody is going to warranty something that could harm the vehicles, just to cave to the ethanol lobby."

Actually, the only one putting out a ridiculous argument is you gamechanger...

GM and ford have modified their newer vehicles to make them compatible with E15. That's why they warranty their NEW vehicles for use with E15, while their older vehicles warranty becomes VOID if they use damaging E15.

Savvy?



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reb4
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Message Posted: Oct 7, 2012 9:32:30 AM

Gamechanger2011, the article stated "As part of an industry group, GM performed multiple tests of E15 in vehicles, including model years 2001 to 2011. The tests found E15 damages the older vehicles’ engines, said Basel.

“For model-year 2011 or earlier vehicles we strongly recommend that GM customers refer to their owners manuals for the proper fuel designation for their vehicles,” she said. “In fact, we recommend this across the board.” -

-
THis is what GM's recommendations are, not REB4's I didn't make this stuff up...

As for my vehicles, I own 2009 toyota corolla, and a 2010 toyota prius.

Of course I can understand why the ethanol protection agency would want to have people buy new cars, would help the economy...


[Edited by: reb4 at 10/7/2012 9:34:16 AM EST]
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gamechanger2011
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Message Posted: Oct 6, 2012 7:43:45 PM

Rididculous argument. Nobody is going to warranty something that could harm the vehicles, just to cave to the ethanol lobby. That would cost them an untold sum of money in warranty repairs.

[Edited by: gamechanger2011 at 10/6/2012 7:44:05 PM EST]
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Shockjock1961
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Message Posted: Oct 6, 2012 7:08:52 PM

"Really Reb4....your big argument used to be that using anything over E10 would void your warranty."

Unless Reb4 owns a brand New GM or Ford I think his statement my be valid. How does GM and Ford caving into the ethanol lobbyist pressure have anything to do with whether or not Reb4's warranty will be void if he uses anything more concentrated then E10??

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gamechanger2011
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Message Posted: Oct 6, 2012 4:19:27 PM

Really Reb4....your big argument used to be that using anything over E10 would void your warranty. Now the automakers say you can use it in their new cars and you want to discredit them.
Really, what would be their reason to provide a warranty on something if it would actually cause damage to the car. You are making NO sense now.
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reb4
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Message Posted: Oct 2, 2012 10:36:44 PM

Here is a link to the story...

refer to your owners manual, there is a novel approach... But some folks are much smarter than the multi billion dollar auto manufacturers.

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brerrabbitTX
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Message Posted: Oct 2, 2012 2:48:39 PM

Sorry for the length but I could not provide a link to this.

2012-10-02 12:11:40 EDT
***FORD AND GM OKAY E15 BLENDS FOR NEW VEHICLES
Ford Motor Co. and General Motors have quietly approved gasoline blends with up to 15% ethanol for use in later model cars and light trucks, Oil Express has learned.
Together, the automakers produce more than a third of the new light-vehicles sold in the United States, according to Automotive News data.
Most auto manufacturers have opposed the blend, warning that gassing up with it will void their vehicle warranties. The auto industry has called for more testing of the new fuel, concerned about the effect a higher concentration of alcohol might have on vehicle engines.
But GM's 2012 and 2013 model-year vehicles can use gasoline blends with up to 15% ethanol. The automaker states the policy in its new vehicle owners'
manuals, spokeswoman Sharon Basel told Oil Express.
And Ford made the decision late last year to allow owners of 2013 vehicles to use E15. The automaker has started placing labels in the fuel filter area that says blends of up to 15% ethanol are acceptable in new, non-flex fuel vehicles.
"Ford is transitioning all U.S. gasoline vehicle program owner guides," said Ford spokesman Richard Truett. "Capless bezel labeling will allow the use of fuels containing up to E15."
Ford will allow 15% ethanol blends in vehicles as old as model year 2010 based on its own testing, Truett said.
Basel said that as E15 continued to advance through regulatory channels, GM designed its new vehicles to "perform efficiently" with the fuel if it became more available.
"We are focused on securing a safe and trouble-free driving experience for our customers and this modification prepares our vehicles for the potential intro of an E15 blend," she said.
In August, the U.S. Appeals Court for the District of Columbia Circuit dismissed legal challenges from trade groups representing automakers and refiners of the EPA's approval of E15 for model years 2001 and up.
But GM and Ford still question the blend's use in older models.
Truett said Ford is "confident" in its decision to support E15 in late-model vehicles because the company's own tests confirm its safety only back to model year 2010.
As part of an industry group, GM performed multiple tests of E15 in vehicles, including model years 2001 to 2011. The tests found E15 damages the older vehicles' engines, said Basel.
"For model-year 2011 or earlier vehicles we strongly recommend that GM customers refer to their owners manuals for the proper fuel designation for their vehicles," she said. "In fact, we recommend this across the board."
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krzysiek_ck
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Message Posted: Sep 23, 2012 10:05:43 AM

reb4 wrote: "not worth it... by the way find any guarantees for e15?"

Yes indeed, waiting for you to stand by your own word is simply not worth it.
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krzysiek_ck
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Message Posted: Sep 23, 2012 10:01:16 AM

This is not what I'm asking for RedRider1OK. Read below, and give it one more try.
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reb4
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Message Posted: Sep 22, 2012 11:00:44 PM

redrider10k, not worth it... by the way find any guarantees for e15?
meantime...
E15 is the fuel that just isn't going to make it...

I can't believe any fuel operator with any business saavy is goint to offer fuel with e10 and e15 out of a single hose dispenser
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RedRider1OK
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Message Posted: Sep 22, 2012 10:43:47 PM

Here you go krzy:

"The BP Fuels Guarantee is more than just a statement. In the unlikely event that you experience fuel-system trouble due to the use of Amoco Ultimate®, BP Silver (mid-grade), BP Regular or BP Diesel®, we'll reimburse you for the repairs. Simply call us at 1-800-333-3991 to report the problem. You'll also need to provide your fuel receipt and mechanic's repair bill. We'll review your claim and any BP fuel-related repairs will be reimbursed to you."

BP fuels guarantee

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