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Author Topic: Ethanol Mandates Killing Pa. Jobs, Hiking Prices Back to Topics
antiguzzle

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Wichita

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Message Posted: May 3, 2012 3:46:26 PM

Ethanol Mandates Killing Pa. Jobs, Hiking Prices

"Gas prices may have peaked nationally at $3.87 a gallon on April 9, but that is still more than double the price Americans were paying when President Obama was sworn into office. With such high prices you’d think oil refiners would be making record profits."

"But you’d be wrong."

"Thanks to federal government mandates, oil refiners are losing millions of dollars every quarter. As a result, two refineries in the Philadelphia area have already been shut down, and a third is scheduled to close this August. Thousands of jobs have been lost, and if all three facilities go offline, the East Coast will have lost 50 percent of its refining capacity."

"Every gallon of government-mandated ethanol cuts demand for refined gasoline by one gallon. Less demand for refined oil means lower prices for refiners, and lower prices mean more East Coast refiners go out of business."

"And don’t get excited about those “lower prices,” either, because you don’t share any of the savings at the pump. Measured by its per-gallon energy content, the ethanol mixed with your gas costs more than the gas itself. Ethanol helps you fill your tank for less, but it costs you more because it makes you fill your tank more often."
REPLIES (newest first) Post a Reply
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thebrohta167
Champion Author New Jersey

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Message Posted: Feb 20, 2014 8:36:39 AM

ok
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Hannie59
All-Star Author Appleton

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Message Posted: Feb 18, 2014 1:03:56 PM

What Banjoe states will probably happen eventually. I hope not though. I do not like the thought of oil companies owning and controlling a superior product like ethanol. They have already demonstrated for 100 years that they are the ultimate greed machine, the mother of all monopolies, and the worst industry in the history of the world.

[Edited by: Hannie59 at 2/18/2014 1:04:12 PM EST]
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tropicalmn
Veteran Author Minnesota

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Message Posted: Feb 18, 2014 12:51:43 AM

"The smart move would be for Big Oil to be slipping into the ethanol game so they would retain market share."

They have been & still are looking at purchasing ethanol plants. Valero,Sunoco,Murphy Oil,Koch & Marathon are the ones I think of that have had ownership in ethanol plants. I think there interest is more as ethanol as a fuel octane additive(E10) both in the US & export market.Basically ethanol is the cheapest,most benign form of octane additive available at this time.
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stickyvalves
Champion Author Iowa

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Message Posted: Feb 17, 2014 8:26:28 AM

I have been burning gasohol since 1978. Every vehicle I used only lost 2% mileage. Older vehicles let me change the timing and I could make them get equivalent mileage. Personally, I have never had a 10% decrease with a tankful of gasohol. Midwestern corn belt area fuels must be blended differently.
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Banjoe
Champion Author Winnipeg

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Message Posted: Feb 17, 2014 8:08:35 AM

The smart move would be for Big Oil to be slipping into the ethanol game so they would retain market share.

Unfortunately, there is way too much easy money in gasoline to waste anything on alternate energy programs. Better to just keep raising prices to squeeze profits out of the system until the golden geese are all cooked.
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borsht
Champion Author Oakland

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Message Posted: Feb 17, 2014 3:29:30 AM

They will be jumping at least $.50 in California as the switch to summer blends comes.
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gavinON
All-Star Author Toronto

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Message Posted: May 6, 2012 5:16:38 PM

hmmm
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gavinON
All-Star Author Toronto

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Message Posted: May 6, 2012 5:16:28 PM

hmmmm
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gavinON
All-Star Author Toronto

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Message Posted: May 6, 2012 5:16:19 PM

hmm
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Waterman66
Champion Author Colorado

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Message Posted: May 6, 2012 4:38:59 PM

GM1954, the calculations are correct. It is how we define things and regionally. To me, it is alcohol and always will be called that. This goes back to the days of working on race cars. We didn't call it ethanol. We called it alcohol. After 15 years of using that terminology it is difficult to change that perspective. This also goes back to the early mid-80's when the blend was called gasahol, not ethanol.

The second point was that the author stated that one gallon of ethanol (alcohol) displaces 1 gallon of gas, thus reducing the refinery demand. If what the yahoo's claim of 10% or more reduction in fuel mileage then there is really no reduction in gasoline consumption or even an increase. I don't buy the reduction. I have tested this too many times when it was much easier to get E0 as compared to today.

One thing is terminology was an issue in the post but not the calculations. I am not in the refinery business so I don't know about the lighter fractions of crude oil. This is something that I haven't heard of. One thing I do know is your reading comprehension sucks.

I like alcohol blended fuels and always have but it is not the total answer, especially on the cellulosic production.
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GM1954
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: May 6, 2012 7:43:30 AM

"1) 1 gallon of ethanol doesn't replace 1 gallon of petro. More like 1 gallon of alcohol replaces 1 gallon of petro. However, it takes 10 gallons of ethanol to replace 1 gallon of petro since ethanol is 90% petro and 10% alcohol."

It's easy to see that US students rank 25th in math and science, globally.

Ethanol is an alcohol. One gallon of ethanol is one gallon of an alcohol.

What you failed to consider is when oil companies blend ethanol (an alcohol) with gasoline, they can use lighter fractions of crude oil, that previously could not be blended into gasoline. So, ethanol actually extends the fuel supply by more than 1:1. For every gallon of ethanol used, it might displace 1.1 or 1.2 gallons of conventional gasoline. That's far greater than any mileage loss associated with ethanol.
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Waterman66
Champion Author Colorado

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Message Posted: May 5, 2012 8:29:04 PM

Several things wrong with this article after reading it several times and thinking about it.

1) 1 gallon of ethanol doesn't replace 1 gallon of petro. More like 1 gallon of alcohol replaces 1 gallon of petro. However, it takes 10 gallons of ethanol to replace 1 gallon of petro since ethanol is 90% petro and 10% alcohol.

2) If you have to fill up more often with ethanol as the author states then that is lower yet since you are burning more total fuel with ethanol.

3) The east coast refineries need large investments to upgrade them. With brent crude (their major supply) being more expensive to buy, does the price difference to refine it since it is easier to refine and update costs offset the lower price crude from North Dakota and Canada and higher refinement cost. Probably not otherwise they would be doing the updating.
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gamechanger2011
Champion Author Wichita

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Message Posted: May 4, 2012 8:41:01 PM

Silverstreaker....I'm glad you reposted "Antiguzzles Solution" again. I needed a good laugh!
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Edpap
Champion Author Pennsylvania

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Message Posted: May 4, 2012 4:35:48 PM

You end up buying 10% to 30% more gas because of the reduced MPG with ethanol....long term that may mean you are using more gas...depends on how efficiently your engine burns ethanol.
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SilverStreaker
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: May 4, 2012 4:33:32 PM

antiguzzle, were you looking in a mirror when you wrote "You're so blinded by your misguided idealistic cause, that you've lost grasp of reality."

Case in point: Antiguzzle's Solution
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antiguzzle
Sophomore Author Wichita

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Message Posted: May 4, 2012 3:38:56 PM

"antiguzzle, thanks for proving that ethanol is helping reduce petroleum imports!"

Read the article more carefully. What you are seeing is only a microcosm of what could become a total economic disaster on the east coast thanks to government manipulation in the free market. You're so blinded by your misguided idealistic cause, that you've lost grasp of reality.

Using your logic, we should just stop importing oil today and let all the pumps run dry. That would really fix 'em wouldn't it... *sigh*
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SilverStreaker
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: May 4, 2012 12:00:56 PM

antiguzzle, thanks for proving that ethanol is helping reduce petroleum imports!
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gamechanger2011
Champion Author Wichita

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Message Posted: May 4, 2012 11:31:16 AM

Check out antiguzzles posts about the price of E0 in Wichita. It was all a big lie. Now someone is posting bogus prices on Gasbuddy to make people think that the station that antiguzzle mentions is selling E0 for 3.49 instead of 3.59. I think that he has something to do with the bogus price postings. The station never dropped their price form 3.59.

I think that we now have proof that the guy is full of bologna!
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krzysiek_ck
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: May 4, 2012 10:47:32 AM

jacksfan wrote: "According to every other bit of propaganda you guys have spun out there to this point, you claim ethanol use actually increases use of petroleum products. Now you quote a refiner stating that ethanol reduces gasoline use gallon for gallon."

Excellent point.
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jacksfan
Champion Author Lincoln

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Message Posted: May 4, 2012 10:22:45 AM

"Every gallon of government-mandated ethanol cuts demand for refined gasoline by one gallon. Less demand for refined oil means lower prices for refiners, and lower prices mean more East Coast refiners go out of business."

Come on Anti-Ethanol(TM) crowd. Get your stories straight!

According to every other bit of propaganda you guys have spun out there to this point, you claim ethanol use actually increases use of petroleum products. Now you quote a refiner stating that ethanol reduces gasoline use gallon for gallon.

Yes indeed, straight from the refiner's mouth: Ethanol does significantly reduce our reliance on foreign oil. Thanks for posting, antiguzzle. Welcome to our side!
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chemist74
Champion Author Cleveland

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Message Posted: May 4, 2012 8:50:37 AM

These refineries are closing because they are relatively small, old, inefficient and use more expensive types of crude. One can just as easily blame it on hybrids or increasing fuel economy of newer cars.
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