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Author Topic: Americans want choice at the pump Back to Topics
gamechanger2011

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Wichita

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Message Posted: Apr 19, 2012 9:21:51 PM

"Seventy-five percent of those polled said they would support requiring automakers to build cars to run on fuel sources other than oil. The RFA has been a strong and early champion of the Open Fuel Standard (OFS) that would accomplish this exact goal."

Americans want choice at the pump

[Edited by: gamechanger2011 at 4/19/2012 9:22:30 PM EST]
REPLIES (newest first) Post a Reply
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barryo62
Rookie Author Iowa

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Message Posted: Mar 23, 2014 7:54:21 PM

borsht is calling ethanol a parasite.
Today two ships collide in Galveston Bay Texas spilling oil in the bay.
The Coast Guard is there with their ships and people who pays for that?
Taxpayers. Taxpayers get the bill for cleanup in the water and the shoreline.
Big Oil can still over charge people for their products and not be responsible for much of any clean up and damage to the area polluted by the spill.
Taxpayers pay the bill oil companies will not.
Who is the parasite?
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krzysiek_ck
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Mar 23, 2014 1:49:34 PM

Another "interesting" article by Russ Finley who already proved to be an apologist for oil refiners making wild claims.

[Edited by: krzysiek_ck at 3/23/2014 1:53:35 PM EST]
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Shockjock1961
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Mar 23, 2014 1:11:03 PM

An interesting article:

. In general, because consumers could care less about corn ethanol, fuel blenders also could care less about it except as an economically viable anti-knock additive in more modest quantities. They have to be forced to blend more of it by the government. Unless or until some unforeseen consumer demand arises, mandated blending will be necessary to keep the corn ethanol industry solvent.
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nurdco
Champion Author Colorado Springs

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Message Posted: Mar 23, 2014 12:09:07 AM

Obama's EPA dictates...
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GrumpyCat
Champion Author Alabama

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Message Posted: Mar 22, 2014 11:31:53 PM

Typical shortsightedness and useless survey. 75% would agree to requiring manufacturers to use Doctor Who TARDIS technology to make the interior bigger than the exterior. But few to none would be willing to pay the price.

Witness zero emission compliance cars. Mandated quotas in order to be allowed to sell conventional vehicles. Manufacturers comply but when the clock starts to run out of time and most have not moved they give the cars away with ultra cheap leases. Then raise the prices of all others to subsidize the mandated compliance models.
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Shockjock1961
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Mar 22, 2014 6:45:26 PM

"I feel their pain, but without other regulation keeping domestically produced crude in the U.S., rather than exporting it"

There are already regulations that keep produced crude in the U.S., rather than exporting it...

"Especially since complaining to us, your fellow citizens who can do nothing about anything more than you"

The more people that are made aware of how the ethanol producers and farmers are keeping Americans from having a choice, the more people who can work to have the regulations changed...

"demand in the market will win out."

Unless there are regulations on the books which force people to use a product, such as currently exists for ethanol...

"The other thing I find interesting about this debate is that ethanol free gasoline fans are willing to pay a premium greater than the savings that most of them will ever reap from using E0 versus E10."

There is a premium only because of the ethanol minimum usage mandate. With the mandate eliminated, the premium would disappear...
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Boyrr
Champion Author Allentown

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Message Posted: Mar 22, 2014 4:47:22 PM

Ethanol is only good for nothing!
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krzysiek_ck
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Mar 22, 2014 12:58:42 PM

borsht wrote: "For starters try lubricating your engine with ethanol or a derivative of ethanol."

For starters try lubricating your engine with gasoline. Better yet use crude oil for fuel and lubrication. Report back after 500 miles and if you make it we will discuss crude oil as a fuel.

Please stick to the forum where you possibly could stay on the subject and maybe add to it, Just For Fun.

[Edited by: krzysiek_ck at 3/22/2014 12:59:16 PM EST]
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borsht
Champion Author Oakland

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Message Posted: Mar 22, 2014 11:18:22 AM

As much as the ethanol promoters work to push ethanol. It only serves one purpose ,that is operating as a parasite on the back of gasoline.

What do we get from oil?
So, two-thirds of oil in US is used for transportation.
The question is what do we use oil for, apart from transportation? Oil is used to produce products that are used in industry and for residential use. Oil is used for making oil based lubricants that are used in both, homes and industries. It is also used to produce electricity. In some regions, oil is used to heat homes and residential areas during cold climates. Are these just the only uses of oil? No, there are a few more ways in which oil is used.

The most common thing in our lives is plastic. Without plastic we probably won't survive. Right from the Apple iPhone in your hand, to the plastic jacket you use to cover yourself from the maddening rain, is plastic. If we were to get rid of all the plastic in the world, we will still be discussing uses of oil.

Apart from plastic, you have ample number of things around the house that uses oil. Just a simple example, the toothpaste you use daily, is made up of a type of petroleum compound. Not only your toothpaste, so does your shampoo, soap, shaving cream, deodorant, perfumes, nail polish, nail polish remover, all have some or the other type of petroleum compounds like crude oil or natural gas included in the ingredients.

Other than this, we need oil to make medications that help save lives. We also use oil in production of fertilizers, pesticides, etc. And then we come back to square one. All these essential commodities are transported thousands of miles through helicopters, trucks, buses, cars, ships, etc. These modes of transportation all work on, you guessed it right, oil.

Other uses of oil includes, use as fuel in form of Liquefied Petroleum Gas (LPG), gasoline (petrol), diesel fuel, kerosene, jet fuel and fuel oils. It is used as lubricants for motor oils, greases, machine oils, etc. Bulk tar, asphalt, paraffin wax, petroleum coke, aromatic petrochemicals, etc. are also products made , Let's try lubrication your engine with ethanol or a derivative of ethanol!
from oil.

Now what do we get from ethanol?

If we didn't have ethanol, where would we be?
If we didn't have oil where would we be?

For starters try lubricating your engine with ethanol or a derivative of ethanol.

Ethanol is a parasite! Living off the life of oil.

[Edited by: borsht at 3/22/2014 11:23:27 AM EST]
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goldseeker
Champion Author West Virginia

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Message Posted: Mar 22, 2014 4:39:00 AM

You bet I do. Please give me choice at every station in America.
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ProfDude
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Message Posted: Mar 22, 2014 12:52:51 AM

Shockjock, whether oil refiners turn a profit or lose money has nothing to do with whether or not there is a demand in the market for pure gasoline. Their profitability is as much impacted by their ability to receive and refine specific types of crude, and what is most readily available to them in their part of the country. It also has to do with which markets they are selling to, including domestic or abroad, and fuel types they can produce. The author of the subject article you cited seems only to be a frustrated apologist for oil refiners. I feel their pain, but without other regulation keeping domestically produced crude in the U.S., rather than exporting it (a form of shove it down your throats legislation, don't you think?) domestic refineries would be losing even more money.

Blaming a law in this forum that does not fully take effect for 7-3/4 years also makes little sense to me when there are other courses of action available. Especially since complaining to us, your fellow citizens who can do nothing about anything more than you, in and of itself makes no sense. It only creates dissension and disunity. What is needed is to find common ground and build from there. In fact, the best GB Members can do is to buy and use as much E85 as possible in order to drive up the amount of ethanol being consumed so as to meet the regulatory goal without otherwise impacting the existing gasoline-ethanol fuel mix. Or, we could all just increase our collective gasoline consumption by 15% per year and that would create a bigger pool into which ethanol can be blended in lower percentages overall, allowing for that freedom of choice you seek. A big part of the problem, as is the case with much governmental regulation and legislation, is that it fails to be flexible enough to adapt quickly to the market. Demand for gasoline is falling and no one wants to give up their path to material riches.

I can only presume that you write your congressional reps and Senators regularly, and seek out others who feel and do the same. This is what lobbying entities do, of course, flood Congress with loads of letters from members specifying their preferred course of action, all the while implying that election outcomes will be swayed to favor another if the politicians ignore their calls for action. For me, I don't bother wasting my time, as the system is broken beyond repair.

I say again, that even though we live in a country that is not truly capitalist, and never really has been, demand in the market will win out. It typically does, regardless of other pressures brought to bear. It was a small move, but the EPA and members of Congress seem to be awakening to the realities of the market. They are recognizing, however reluctantly, that there simply is not a sufficient supply of ethanol to be produced from as wide a range of biomass as futurists had hoped ten years back.

The other thing I find interesting about this debate is that ethanol free gasoline fans are willing to pay a premium greater than the savings that most of them will ever reap from using E0 versus E10. The energy formula makes it clear that the difference is only about three to five percentage points, automotive engineering factors being otherwise removed from the equation, whilst E0 commonly sells at a premium to E10 of 5 to 10%, making E10 less expensive per mile than E0.

I do agree, Shockjock, that no lobby, whether big oil, or big ag, should be dictating congressional or environmental policy in such a unilateral manner. Both have resulted in excessive policies that in turn cause us to argue amongst ourselves to the point that we fail to see that what we have is a defective system of governance that has nigh run its course. Unfortunately, a purely representative form of government is only reflective of the people governed thereby as a whole. Selfish desires by politically active people only show up in the form of government mandates designed in part to protect the parties in power.

If you really want to change the sort of policies we have, you must first start with the character of every voting member of the country. This entails a completely new paradigm that must permeate society. Otherwise we will continue to simply shift from one powerful lobby to another. There is no other option but to think and act completely differently.

Do you teach your students facts, figures and sciences, or do you discuss with them the importance of being prepared to give up what they want in favor of what is best for the greater society? I'm just curious. Perhaps you are too burdened by NCLB to have much say any more.

Thank you for the replies, Shockjock. There is no easy answer here, but there is one in there somewhere. Sadly, this is just not the forum for actually doing anything productive about it.

Happy Spring!
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tropicalmn
Veteran Author Minnesota

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Message Posted: Mar 22, 2014 12:52:14 AM

The problem is that a habitual liar keeps making fictional claims.The latest nonsense being a old article from from 2 years ago claiming gloom & doom in Pennsylvania & the East Coast because of ethanol.

US East Coast oil refineries enjoy a stirring comeback
Alarm bells rang along the US Eastern Seaboard not too long ago that the region would face fuel shortages due to refinery closures in the region, but the dynamics changed with the entrance of some new players as well as domestic crude supply via rail from the Bakken Shale play.

[Edited by: tropicalmn at 3/22/2014 12:54:18 AM EST]
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Shockjock1961
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Message Posted: Mar 21, 2014 10:29:46 PM

This is the problem:

Thanks to federal government mandates, oil refiners are losing millions of dollars every quarter.
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Shockjock1961
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Mar 21, 2014 10:26:50 PM

"Shockjock, if your statement about the federal regulations denying the sale of E0 were completely accurate, then why do so many stations sell it in other parts of the U.S.?"

Because states like Iowa heavily subsidize ethanol driving the price down to the point where sales needed to meet the mandate are able to be met.

"Look, I don't care in the slightest what you think of ethanol as a motor vehicle fuel. I had my personal experiment and happen to believe that ethanol is being overemphasized in the market."

I have no problem with ethanol. If people want to buy it more power to them. What I don't like is the ethanol and farming lobby forcing it down the publics throat.

"What I do know is how largely free (semi-regulated) markets work"

Unfortunately the ethanol and farming lobbies have ensured that the market is not free...

"If you truly prefer E0, then get off your high horse and start telling people who matter: the distributors, refiners, suppliers and retailers "

Read my above response...
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ProfDude
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Message Posted: Mar 21, 2014 7:18:52 PM

Shockjock, if your statement about the federal regulations denying the sale of E0 were completely accurate, then why do so many stations sell it in other parts of the U.S.? Clearly something else is afoot.

Look, I don't care in the slightest what you think of ethanol as a motor vehicle fuel. I had my personal experiment and happen to believe that ethanol is being overemphasized in the market. The very best of things when taken to extreme becomes an evil of sorts.

I sold both of my FFV's over the past two years and switched to diesel, where I can get just as annoyed about too much bio-content, that violates the manufacturer's warranty, for my daily driver. And, bio-diesel mixes are generally much less challenging a fuel to use in OEM vehicles than gasoline-ethanol.

What I do know is how largely free (semi-regulated) markets work, and they work mostly (still) on demand and supply. First, you need to take the time and effort to demonstrate that there is a demand and then some retailer and wholesaler will pay attention. It's just that simple.

E85 was hardly available at all, even in the Midwest, when I started purchasing it in 2001. It has grown significantly, not only because the supply has been encouraged by state and federal government policy, but because people like me actually preferred to buy it if and when the price was right.

If you truly prefer E0, then get off your high horse and start telling people who matter: the distributors, refiners, suppliers and retailers who stand to profit from differentiating their business from that of their competitors. That is the role E85 plays for many fuel retailers - a chance to bring in a unique set of customers. The exact same economic principle holds true for E0.

I wish you well, and really wish you would more consistently press your point where it might do you, and others like you, some good. It takes significant, long-term effort to move the world.

Sorry for the lecture. Now it's time for me to go back to studying where I can find B5 or less at a reasonable price for the next couple of refueling stops.

[Edited by: ProfDude at 3/21/2014 7:19:34 PM EST]
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Shockjock1961
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Mar 21, 2014 3:58:53 PM

"Shockjock, don't you think that it would be offered for sale if a retailer and wholesaler thought there was a big enough market regardless of the regulatory environment"

The Federal minimum usage mandate forces the oil companies to deny the sale of E0. If it were widely available at true market prices, ethanol sales would plummet, and the oil companies would be fined (more then they are now) for not reaching the mandated sales figures...

"A personal suggestion to a fellow teacher: stop by a few of your favorite stations, go inside and talk with the manager and see what they say to your request for them to offer it for sale there."

I have, and received the above response...

"I have to believe it is all about the marketplace and the economic viability of the product offering."

Ethanol is non-viable, which is why the Feds have implemented the minimum usage standards. Why do you think the ethanol shills had a hissy fit when the EPA speculated they may reduce the mandate figures?
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Hannie59
All-Star Author Appleton

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Message Posted: Mar 21, 2014 9:40:05 AM

Shockjock said "Ethanol does not sell on it's own. Which is why the government forces it to be utilized."

How come millions of vehicle owners are choosing E-85 when they can all choose E-10 and most can choose E-0?

E-10 simply burns cleaner than E-0 and has fewer emissions. And it is because of the clean air act as krzysiek-ck said. Not because of anyone forcing anyone else to do anything. tropicalmn your post made my day!

[Edited by: Hannie59 at 3/21/2014 9:40:42 AM EST]
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krzysiek_ck
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Mar 21, 2014 9:08:58 AM

Shockjock1961 wrote: "There is no E0 available within 50 miles of where I live (due to the minimum usage mandate), so E0 is not a choice for me or for many others..."

Wrong. E10 in Cook County, and other counties in Illinois, is sold because of Clean Air Act not Energy Independence and Security Act. On the other hand, your lack of understanding, purposely or not, on any topic related to Ethanol is well documented already. Your credibility is long gone.

Also, as already explained to you on multiple occasions, you can get E0 in your area. Since it is not as convenient as going to your nearest gas station you simply do not want to go the extra step. You have only yourself to blame for it.

[Edited by: krzysiek_ck at 3/21/2014 9:11:14 AM EST]
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tropicalmn
Veteran Author Minnesota

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Message Posted: Mar 21, 2014 12:05:34 AM

"There is no E0 available within 50 miles of where I live (due to the minimum usage mandate), so E0 is not a choice for me or for many others..."
"That lack of choice is what the corn farmers and ethanol producers have bought and paid for..."

"We currently utilize 40% of our corn crop to manufacture a fuel which provides for a tiny fraction of our liquid fuel needs..."

"Ethanol does not sell on it's own. Which is why the government forces it to be utilized."

"Unfortunately, the corn and ethanol lobby are still trying to ensure you don't have your choice..."

Anyone else notice the pattern????
Habitual liar lies so frequently, that it becomes a habit, as a result, he/she puts very little effort in giving a thought about what the output is going to be, nor does he/she care much to process whether it’s a lie or not, it’s simply a reflex & very often can be completely unnecessary or even opposite to his/her own needs. If he/she stops & thinks about it, he/she knows clearly it’s a lie.
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ProfDude
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Mar 20, 2014 7:29:56 PM

Shockjock, don't you think that it would be offered for sale if a retailer and wholesaler thought there was a big enough market regardless of the regulatory environment?

This seems to be the case in other areas where it is offered.

A personal suggestion to a fellow teacher: stop by a few of your favorite stations, go inside and talk with the manager and see what they say to your request for them to offer it for sale there.

I would be very interested in what kind of response you get. You could report on it here.

I know that where I sometimes visit daughter #2 in South Carolina, one retailer (Spinx, as I recall) recently removed E85 from a number of stations and replaced it with E0. As an entrepreneur and business prof., I have to believe it is all about the marketplace and the economic viability of the product offering.

[Edited by: ProfDude at 3/20/2014 7:36:32 PM EST]
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SilverStreaker
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Mar 20, 2014 6:11:39 PM

There is no E100 available within 5000 miles of where I live, so E100 is not a choice for me or for many others...
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Shockjock1961
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Mar 20, 2014 6:04:56 PM

"There's E0 available in many rural Illinois communities and throughout Iowa, for just a few examples."

There is no E0 available within 50 miles of where I live (due to the minimum usage mandate), so E0 is not a choice for me or for many others...

[Edited by: Shockjock1961 at 3/20/2014 6:06:41 PM EST]
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barryo62
Rookie Author Iowa

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Message Posted: Mar 16, 2014 5:39:20 PM

Some people keep calling corn food.
Do some people really know the difference between yellow dent corn and sweet corn?
Dried distillers grain is a by product of ethanol and makes excellent livestock feed.
Calling dent corn food is silly livestock eat it.
Got pumps in my area that have plain unleaded gasoline if you want it.
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ProfDude
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Mar 15, 2014 9:26:55 PM

There's E0 available in many rural Illinois communities and throughout Iowa, for just a few examples. Retailers and producers will offer it for sale if there is an adequate demand in the market.

It has long been interesting to me that the stations in rural Illinois to sell E0 are also typically selling E85.
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krzysiek_ck
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Mar 15, 2014 8:55:54 PM

In my area, and most of the country, if you don't want to use Ethanol in your fuel you don't have to. There are choices, for example diesel and electric.

On the other hand, if you don't want to use Ethanol diluted with gasoline then you do not have any feasible choices.

That lack of choice is what Big Oil and OPEC have bought and paid for...
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Shockjock1961
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Mar 15, 2014 8:25:13 PM

In my area(and a large portion of the country) you cannot buy gasoline that has not been diluted with ethanol.

That lack of choice is what the corn farmers and ethanol producers have bought and paid for...
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ProfDude
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Mar 15, 2014 12:09:11 AM

Choices, choices... here I am in Greenville, South Carolina for a brief stint. At one station today I found the following:

E10 in 87, 89, 90, 91 and 93 octanes. $3.259/3.499/3.579/3.699/3.799

Also 87 octane E0 $3.659 and diesel for $3.799

The above station also had both cash and credit prices (credit shown above)

And, just a few miles away, also in Greenville, E85 for $2.699.

Happy debating, boys and girls!
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mhradecky
Veteran Author New York

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Message Posted: Mar 14, 2014 12:44:19 PM

94 at Sunoco, what happened to that choice?
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barryo62
Rookie Author Iowa

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Message Posted: Mar 14, 2014 11:13:05 AM

cv must like to eat corn yummy.
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bbt83221
Rookie Author Idaho

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Message Posted: Mar 14, 2014 9:58:15 AM

not interested in ethanol
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goldseeker
Champion Author West Virginia

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Message Posted: Mar 14, 2014 3:46:11 AM

Shockoil loves monopolies. I prefer ethanol.
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tomtom08
All-Star Author Providence

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Message Posted: Mar 13, 2014 8:04:01 PM

is there a pole that ask what percentage of people want other sources of fuel than ethanol? bet that would be higher than %75
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Shockjock1961
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Feb 21, 2014 1:49:10 PM

"We nee to stop our oil dependency"

You are not going to do so with ethanol. We currently utilize 40% of our corn crop to manufacture a fuel which provides for a tiny fraction of our liquid fuel needs...

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krzysiek_ck
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Feb 21, 2014 1:35:36 PM

Shockjock1961 wrote: "In other words you don't have the choice NOT to use ethanol..."

Sure you do, even multiple. I will start with one, diesel.
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espo85
All-Star Author Connecticut

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Message Posted: Feb 20, 2014 8:26:54 PM

We nee to stop our oil dependency
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SilverStreaker
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Feb 13, 2014 9:35:12 AM

Shockjock1961 says "Ethanol does not sell on it's own"

Ever hear of E85, genius?
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Shockjock1961
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Feb 13, 2014 9:24:01 AM

"what ever sells"

That's just it. Ethanol does not sell on it's own. Which is why the government forces it to be utilized. In other words you don't have the choice NOT to use ethanol...
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Bowlerman10
Sophomore Author Fort Worth

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Message Posted: Feb 13, 2014 9:21:32 AM

what ever sells
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krzysiek_ck
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Feb 8, 2014 5:49:56 PM

Unfortunately Big Oil in ensuring that we do not have choice. Pointing fingers at others will not change this fact.
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Shockjock1961
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Feb 8, 2014 2:48:13 PM

"Choice makes sense, personally I prefer no ethanol unless it comes from other than our food supply(corn)"

Unfortunately, the corn and ethanol lobby are still trying to ensure you don't have your choice...
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dassfg
Champion Author Fort Worth

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Message Posted: Feb 6, 2014 8:20:36 AM

I made my choice - Diesel - love the mpg
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cv
Champion Author Raleigh

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Message Posted: Feb 4, 2014 6:41:57 AM

Choice makes sense, personally I prefer no ethanol unless it comes from other than our food supply(corn).
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goldseeker
Champion Author West Virginia

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Message Posted: Jan 30, 2014 2:52:39 AM

Yes, and I choose 100% ethanol.
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gasdudeIL
Rookie Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Jun 29, 2012 10:17:17 PM

Great arguments, but I am with the guy who promoted looking into the ones who conducted the "poll". It is safe to do a little research an make sure that the results are reputable.
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reb4
Champion Author Chicago

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Message Posted: Jun 28, 2012 9:00:26 AM

tattoo666tx, this is a poll produced by the ethanol industry...

"The poll results come on the eve of the RFA’s inaugural Washington Legislative Forum being held tomorrow, April 18th, at the Newseum in Washington , DC where Attendees will hear from congressional and administration officials about legislative priorities outlined in the poll and the chances for any legislative action regarding these priorities in 2012. Following the meeting, RFA members will take to Capitol Hill to meet with dozens of lawmakers on issues important to America’s renewable fuel industry."

This is used to feed their propoganda and if you do a google search you can still find this poll used to spin their agenda...

Again, when you see a poll, see who sponsered it, regardless of what it's for...
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tattoo666TX
Champion Author Texas

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Message Posted: Jun 26, 2012 1:28:51 AM

If we go electric it would take a week to travel 2 or 3 states.
LNG? No place to refill on the road.
Ethanol? Crappy fuel mileage.
Solar? No sun at night.
Where did they find that 75%???
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svtmicah
Rookie Author California

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Message Posted: Jun 25, 2012 7:57:16 PM

good
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vangobrown
All-Star Author Wilmington

Posts:721
Points:773,330
Joined:Mar 2012
Message Posted: Jun 25, 2012 10:43:39 AM

[L=news/text deleted/58081_501970/index.aspx][/L]
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GM1954
Champion Author Illinois

Posts:7,950
Points:131,880
Joined:Dec 2004
Message Posted: Jun 25, 2012 9:15:56 AM

"I'd like to have the choice of cane-ethanol, corn-ethanol, or ethanol-free."

What difference do you think that would make?
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TheRavenHeart
Veteran Author Chattanooga

Posts:359
Points:43,145
Joined:Apr 2012
Message Posted: Jun 25, 2012 8:36:54 AM

I'd like to have the choice of cane-ethanol, corn-ethanol, or ethanol-free.
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