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Author Topic: Demonstration project produces green energy from yard waste Back to Topics
gamechanger2011

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Wichita

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Message Posted: Mar 18, 2012 11:40:37 PM

Demonstration project produces green energy from yard waste
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Chazzer
Champion Author Nevada

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Message Posted: Sep 17, 2013 1:04:29 PM

That's a good start!
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Shockjock1961
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Aug 26, 2013 9:29:14 AM

"You mean like the space program?"

The space program, as far as putting men in space, has never been commercially viable...



[Edited by: Shockjock1961 at 8/26/2013 9:29:57 AM EST]
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SilverStreaker
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Aug 25, 2013 11:49:32 PM

"It's easier to make methanol from wood chips and other cellulose fibers"
If it's cheaper, then I'll put methanol in my car.
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aRBy
All-Star Author Grand Rapids

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Message Posted: Aug 25, 2013 11:39:48 PM

It doesn't make sense. It's easier to make methanol from wood chips and other cellulose fibers. Methanol can be mixed with any quantity of gasoline to run today's EFI cars. There are a few components which need to be swapped out to make the car more tolerant of methanol, but these are not expensive.

All this talk about making ethanol from cellulose fibers is just the farm lobby protecting its turf; namely corn ethanol. If the EPA were to allow methanol for automotive fuel (The EPA has a specific ban on this.), corn ethanol would have a tough time competing against a fuel that can be made cheaper from steam reduction of natural gas.

It's time for an open fuel standard to replace the renewable fuel standard. Make cars that are flex fuel for gasoline, ethanol AND methanol. Then let the free market sort the rest out. There will be plenty of jobs for everyone once America is making its automotive fuels from a variety of competitive domestic feedstocks.
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brerrabbitTX
Champion Author Houston

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Message Posted: Aug 25, 2013 9:48:27 PM

Issues that are inherently under the jurisdiction of the government and key to national security are certainly within the relm of government spending. However that being said it is not a green light for the government to get involved with every hair brained scheme that comes along. Where is the garbage gas project that the government backed in the eighties? Where is the coal seam gas from the same period? The coal gasification project from the late seventies? It goes on and on. I can give you a hundred failed projects for every one that enjoys moderate success.
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SilverStreaker
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Aug 25, 2013 7:46:53 PM

"The point is if any technology is commercially viable then it will find it's own way because people and companies will invest in it and the government won't have to."
You mean like the space program? How much of the technology and advances in science do you think we would have if the government had let private companies develop our space program? How many Russian and Chinese satellites would be in orbit without any US ones?
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ZR1S10
Rookie Author Chicago

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Message Posted: Aug 25, 2013 6:41:17 PM

Sorry brerrabbitTX but that is way too naïve. We shouldn’t put all our cards in “natural selection process” or “natural order” or "find its own way". As I said before there are just too many people who are technophobes, are afraid of change, or let political bias get in the way. And too many people who would take unfair advantage of such a system.

[Edited by: ZR1S10 at 8/25/2013 6:42:25 PM EST]
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brerrabbitTX
Champion Author Houston

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Message Posted: Aug 25, 2013 5:39:25 PM

ZR1S10,
Old technology, new technology, I don't really care. The point is if any technology is commercially viable then it will find it's own way because people and companies will invest in it and the government won't have to.

Basic economic principle, money, capital, cash, what ever you want to call it is a scarce resource. There is only so much of it. Therefore it has to find it's best uses, and the place where it can earn the best returns. The government collecting taxes and redirecting those taxes to investment opportunities or startup research efforts makes little or no sense. I don't want the government deciding who to fund and who not to fund. There is a natural selection process that allows the good ideas and the viable projects to find the financial backing they need to proceed. Governmental interference in that process just screws up the natural order. Obama picked a real winner with Solandra didn't he? How many other thousands of pork barrel projects have failed miserably? I would rather the natural process work that for government to try and force issue.
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SilverStreaker
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Aug 25, 2013 5:28:32 PM

Shockjock1961 says "when the government has to throw money at a project in order to get it started, you are almost guaranteed that it's doomed to fail..."
Why don't you convince your university to send their government funded research money back?
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Shockjock1961
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Aug 25, 2013 5:20:10 PM

"Naperville is very left (I know I live there)"

Probably true, since the extreme left seems to believe that you should be taken care of from cradle to the grave by the government...

Unfortunately, when the government has to throw money at a project in order to get it started, you are almost guaranteed that it's doomed to fail...
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ZR1S10
Rookie Author Chicago

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Message Posted: Aug 25, 2013 5:13:55 PM

The new project in Marion is different then older garbage to ethanol setups. Instead of collecting landfill gases they are taking the solid waste itself and using it as a feedstock to create ethanol.

brerrabbitTX most of the time more tech = more efficiently. Plus if the people work together for once we can make more of these "pretty cool scientifically things" economically. There are just too many people who are technophobes, are afraid of change, or let political bias get in the way.
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brerrabbitTX
Champion Author Houston

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Message Posted: Aug 25, 2013 2:55:48 PM

Can't say I am totally against them, just that the reality of the situation is that we can do a lot of pretty cool things scientifically but to do so economically and efficiently not so.

If projects like this one and hundreds of others can become viable, sustainable, and economically self sufficient then I support them. But merely doing it because it can be done does not always make sense.
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SilverStreaker
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Aug 25, 2013 1:52:13 AM

brerrabbitTX, it sounds like you are against government funded research and development. True?
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brerrabbitTX
Champion Author Houston

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Message Posted: Aug 24, 2013 9:04:07 PM

These projects are great to show that as the prices for fuel rise, that at each higher level we will have alternatives to turn to for energy to continue to run our world. I applaud them every time the happen.

Here's the rift, in my 30 plus years in the energy business, I have seen literally dozens and dozens of them come and go. Usually it goes like this, energy prices spike, citizens get worried, and the congress throws some feel good taxpayer dollars at the latest gee whiz project. That was what happened when they gave gas a $1 per MMBtu tax credit for the production of coal seam gas in the four corners area of New Mexico. Gas wells were there but every time the market went down, or wells got shut in they would water up and it took months to dewater them and bring them back on line so no one wanted to do much drilling there because you would lose your shirt. Then congress gave the tax credit and they could not drill wells fast enough. The project was not economically viable without subsidies.

Then came the great garbage gas project. Dig a big hole (a land fill) put ten feet of garbage in. Cover it in plastic and have 4 inch pvc pipes sticking up every 50 feet. Repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat, and at some point fill the pipes with pea gravel, and remove the pipe and let the garbage gas flow. Only problem was without the credit and even with the credit it was not economically viable. How about the gas well that Brooklyn Union has on the old New York City landfill? Been producing garbage gas for a while, but not enough to make a dent in what the city needs. It's a novelty but in reality is meaningless.

Once again I say hooray for innovative thinking, but keep in mind it's not that innovative. They have been taking energy out of rotting things for over 200 years. Heck when you get down to it what is oil, and gas. Its a goo that rotted millions of years ago.

The bottom line is the bottom line. Until these projects can compete without any outside economic intervention (subsidies from any level of government) and produce a product that is competitive in the market without any subsidies then the time for them will not be now. Again it comes to price, and if these types of projects cannot compete straight up with alternatives price wise then it is not their time.
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SilverStreaker
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Aug 24, 2013 8:11:05 PM

“It will become a model for municipalities across the country to use biomass residue to power fleet vehicles”
Small minded individuals don't see the potential return on investment.
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ZR1S10
Rookie Author Chicago

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Message Posted: Aug 24, 2013 7:56:44 PM

LgoodA, yes in a way you can. Marion just got approval to start a waste to ethanol plant. There calling it "trashanol".

As far as ShockJock1961, don't you have anything OBJective to bring to these discussions? All you do is spew out SUBjective opinions and political mumbo jumbo. Naperville is very left (I know I live there) and they don't care about your right-wing BELIEFS. In fact most younger gens don't care about politics at all, they care about objective FACTS. Your just going to continue to sound foolish and be ignored is all you do is spew tried old DOGMA.

[Edited by: ZR1S10 at 8/24/2013 8:06:23 PM EST]
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LgoodA
Rookie Author Wisconsin

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Message Posted: Aug 24, 2013 7:19:20 PM

can a person just make a car that runs on garbage? Just put your garbage in the trunk, and away you go! no more garbage day!
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Hannie59
All-Star Author Appleton

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Message Posted: Jun 4, 2012 5:14:46 PM

Alright that does it.

Shockjock is a doesn't understand fantasy from reality.

Every community in every state has received some sort of grant for something. If he were truthful, he'd rail against the government in its entirety.

He is for government everything but energy choice because, he's an oil troll.

[Edited by: Hannie59 at 6/4/2012 5:19:15 PM EST]
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ethanolbob
All-Star Author Maryland

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Message Posted: Jun 4, 2012 2:22:34 PM

I guess the American taxpayer is paying for the Shockjock boon-doggle.
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chemist74
Champion Author Cleveland

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Message Posted: Mar 20, 2012 8:17:10 AM

If the government funds the technology, the government should own all rights to the technology.
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Shockjock1961
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Mar 19, 2012 4:40:22 PM

"Primary funding for the project is from the U.S. DOE"

In other words, the American taxpayer is paying for the boon-doogle...

If it's so all fired up swell, then why didn't Naperville pay for it itself?
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reb4
Champion Author Chicago

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Message Posted: Mar 19, 2012 8:22:43 AM

good news, Naperville is a very big community. Would be nice to see this actually become more of a defacto standard for handling yardwaste.

"Similar systems could be used in cities with 7,000 or more single family dwellings, the city said."

Odd that bigger communities citys are not doing this.
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goldseeker
Champion Author West Virginia

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Message Posted: Mar 19, 2012 7:34:54 AM

Bring it on!
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OaklandInvaders
Champion Author San Jose

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Message Posted: Mar 19, 2012 3:37:25 AM

Recycable energy. Go for it.
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