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Author Topic: E-15 just blocked Back to Topics
PhilnTX

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Message Posted: Feb 9, 2012 5:04:43 PM

The Science Committee in the House of Representatives has a approved a bill that would prevent the Environmental Protection Agency from allowing the use of gasoline with a higher ethanol content without additional study.

According to The Detroit News, the bill was sponsored by Rep. James Sensenbrenner, R-Wisconsin and passed 19-7 along party lines after numerous groups spoke out against E15. The Alliance of Automobile Manufacturers, the American Petroleum Institute, the Friends of the Earth, the Milk Producers Council, the American Bakers Association and the National Turkey Federation all pushed for further E15 study.

Last year, the government estimated more domestic corn was used for ethanol than to feed farm animals, and opponents of ethanol argue E15 would only lead to steeper food prices across the country.

Congress just recently ended a 30-year tax subsidy on corn-based ethanol and put a stop to tariffs on the fuel imported from Brazil. The subsidy alone reportedly cost taxpayers $6 billion annually. All told, Congress has awarded the ethanol industry $45 billion in subsidies since 1980.
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Don
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Message Posted: Oct 4, 2012 1:04:38 PM

Remember, if a topic has not been posted in for two months or more, then it is considered a "dead topic" and should not be bumped back to the top of the forum list.
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brerrabbitTX
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Message Posted: Oct 4, 2012 9:31:02 AM

I work for a major oil company and as you would guess we deal with mostly E-10 blends that we sell. However we are making some of our first advances into E-85. I have been working with the project in certain areas and Chicago is one of them. Let's just say that E-85 has a very broad definition and I would almost be willing to bet a large sum of money that anyone here who buys E-85 aint really getting E-85. When looking at terminals across the area to see who actually mixes E-85 for delivery to retail sites what we have found is that any concentration of ethanol above 53% is considered E-85 and the highest blend we have found that any terminal will blend up for us is E-70. And for what it is worth most terminals will not even try to blend and sell E-85. There are only a handfull that will. Much of that stems from the fact that the major terminals with mostly E-10 sales do not have adequate tankage for ethanol to supply a continuos flow of any ethanol concentration higher than that.

To get to a larger market share for E-85 blends there will have to be some significant capital spent to make the product available on a larger scale.

I wonder if anyone who has factored those costs into the plan.
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GM1954
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Message Posted: Oct 4, 2012 8:39:33 AM

Ford and General Motors Inc. have approved use of a higher concentration of ethanol fuel in new vehicles: E15 for 2012 and newer.

[Edited by: GM1954 at 10/4/2012 8:43:39 AM EST]
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SilverStreaker
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Mar 17, 2012 12:13:38 AM

Shockjock1961 says "I see..."

I doubt it.
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reb4
Champion Author Chicago

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Message Posted: Mar 16, 2012 11:37:44 PM

Chicago uses more ethanol in summer blend.

from article: "Chicago, like most big cities, is required by the federal Environmental Protection Agency to use pricier "reformulated" gasoline in the summer. It's a cleaner gasoline, aimed at reducing smog-forming and toxic pollutants in the warm summer air.

Reformulated summer gas, mandated to be used every year from June 1 to Sept. 15, requires more expensive additives and costs up to 10 cents more than the regular gas formulation that most of the country uses. So, that alone is an added cost.

And during colder seasons, essentially spring and fall, refineries have to switch formulations. That can hamper production and stockpiles and create a seasonal shortage of gas and, usually, an accompanying price hike.

But there's more.

Chicago doesn't use just any reformulated gas. It requires a unique blend of summer gasoline made at relatively few refineries. The blend is special because its recipe calls for heavy use of corn-based ethanol — politicians who made the rules wanted to support corn farmers, experts say. Illinois is the nation's No. 2 grower of corn.

The blend is used in a relatively small region, essentially a contiguous strip of counties from Chicago to Milwaukee. In fact, the blend has a descriptive name, called the "Chicago/Milwaukee RFG with Ethanol," with RFG standing for reformulated gasoline.

Nobody else in America uses this blend of summertime gas, even in Illinois. The only other area that does is near St. Louis, and that's a different concoction based on summer-gas formulation rules for Southern cities, while Chicago's formula is based on federal rules for a Northern city.

As a result, most of the Chicago blend comes from just a few refineries near Chicago. They include a BP refinery in Whiting, Ind., an Exxon Mobil plant near Joliet and a Citgo plant near Lemont.

"They make a huge amount for Chicago," Sykuta said of those refineries, adding that some Chicago blend can also come by pipeline from Gulf Coast refineries. Exactly what each refinery makes is a secret held closely by refiners for competitive reasons.

The problem is, if a primary producer of Chicago-blend gasoline has a mishap and must shut down production temporarily, like the Exxon Mobil plant did last month, there's quickly a shortage of gasoline because refineries elsewhere are not making it."


[Edited by: reb4 at 3/16/2012 11:39:31 PM EST]
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gamechanger2011
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Message Posted: Mar 16, 2012 10:37:41 PM

Summer blend has more ethanol in it. E85 is actually E75 in the winter and E85 in the summer.
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krzysiek_ck
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Mar 16, 2012 10:32:35 PM

reb4, wrote: "Actually, I believe, the summer blend fuel has less ethanol in it..."

"Butane, which has an RVP of 52 psi, can be blended into gasoline in higher proportions in the winter because the vapor pressure allowance is higher. There are 2 advantages in doing this. First, butane is a cheaper blending component than most of the other ingredients. That makes fall and winter gasoline cheaper to produce. But butane is also abundant, so that means that gasoline supplies increase in the winter because more butane is thrown into the mix. Not only that, but this all takes place after summer driving season, when demand typically falls off. These factors normally combine each year to reduce gasoline prices in the fall (even in non-election years). The RVP is stepped back down to summer levels starting in the spring, and this usually causes prices to increase."

Refining 101: Summer Gasoline
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reb4
Champion Author Chicago

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Message Posted: Mar 16, 2012 10:21:01 PM

Actually, I believe, the summer blend fuel has less ethanol in it...
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Waterman66
Champion Author Colorado

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Message Posted: Mar 16, 2012 10:20:13 PM

nothing new
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gamechanger2011
Champion Author Wichita

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Message Posted: Mar 16, 2012 10:19:30 PM

Looks like Illinois, Iowa and Kansas will be getting E15 fairly soon.
EPA ready for E15 rollout

[Edited by: gamechanger2011 at 3/16/2012 10:20:03 PM EST]
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Shockjock1961
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Mar 16, 2012 9:29:02 PM

I see...
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reb4
Champion Author Chicago

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Message Posted: Mar 16, 2012 2:33:05 PM

shockjock1961, check out the link for e15.. it's actually www.e15.com.

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GrumpyCat
Champion Author Alabama

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Message Posted: Mar 16, 2012 1:08:29 PM

"How can you claim the warranty will not be voided, when Toyota makes it VERY clear that using anything above E10 voids the warranty?"

Very simple: The Federal Government's Bureaucracy believes it is all-powerful and all-wise and empowered to retroactively revise Toyota's warranty.
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reb4
Champion Author Chicago

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Message Posted: Mar 16, 2012 1:04:14 PM

I will be downtown chicago.

Sorry Silverstreak, nothing near Minneapolis for locations near you...

But I could put quite a bit e15 from that source in there. But I believe it's imported...
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SilverStreaker
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Mar 16, 2012 11:39:20 AM

No car manufactures warranties will be voided by putting the e15 from the source that reb4 posted into their vehicles.
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Shockjock1961
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Mar 16, 2012 10:51:21 AM

How can you claim the warranty will not be voided, when Toyota makes it VERY clear that using anything above E10 voids the warranty?

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SilverStreaker
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Mar 16, 2012 10:19:11 AM

reb4, your car warranty won't be voided if you put that e15 in your car. Are you going to try it?
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hailsupersport
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Mar 16, 2012 9:23:26 AM

ok
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reb4
Champion Author Chicago

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Message Posted: Mar 16, 2012 9:22:55 AM

Here's a site to locate e15 product, if anyone is interested...

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reb4
Champion Author Chicago

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Message Posted: Mar 4, 2012 8:10:15 AM

I just saw a picture of a plug-in prius...

take a look at the gas cap...

NO e85 or e15
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bowler93
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Message Posted: Mar 3, 2012 3:38:21 PM

goldseeker, I'm just saying that E15 is only approved for 2001 vehicles or newer, and according to a prototype sticker the EPA may use for gas pumps, it may be against the law to use it in a vehicle 2000 model year or older. Here is a link to the a copy of the sticker:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:EPA_E15_warning_label

[Edited by: bowler93 at 3/3/2012 3:39:15 PM EST]
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Shockjock1961
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Mar 3, 2012 2:35:58 PM

"You talk in circles. According to you if the fuel dealer recieves a tax credit, the ethanol industry is subsidized"

No, what I said was that when the fuel dealer receives a subsidy then ethanol (the product) is being subsidized.

Nice attempt at spin though...
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Shockjock1961
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Mar 3, 2012 2:30:40 PM

"How much has government given big oil in subsidies...would love to have that figure"

Why don't you tell us, since you are the one who claims that they are getting more subsides per gallon of product produced then ethanol...

If you claim something like this, that must mean you have an idea how much they are getting, correct?
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maryph1958
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Message Posted: Mar 3, 2012 11:02:26 AM

ok
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krzysiek_ck
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Mar 3, 2012 10:17:32 AM

gamechanger2011 wrote: "How much has government given big oil in subsidies...would love to have that figure!"

"At a time when gas prices exceed $4 a gallon, these profits are coming out of ordinary people’s pockets, and not just at the pump. American families are also padding the oil companies’ enormous profits with their tax dollars. In effect, U.S. taxpayers wrote a collective $7 billion bonus check to the oil industry when they filed their taxes last month."

"Some of these tax earmarks have been around for nearly a century, and the deep-pocketed industry has successfully challenged previous repeal attempts."

Full article including "a summary of the major oil and gas tax breaks and their cost to taxpayers" - Big Oil’s Misbegotten Tax Gusher

"Why They Don’t Need $70 Billion from Taxpayers Amid Record Profits"
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goldseeker
Champion Author West Virginia

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Message Posted: Mar 2, 2012 11:12:34 PM

"How much has government given big oil in subsidies...would love to have that figure!"

Would you believe that in the last 20 years that government has spent 7.3 trillion dollars to keep the Persian Gulf open so that oil can flow freely.

Wow! Would that amount of money fund an array of alternative fuel options.
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goldseeker
Champion Author West Virginia

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Message Posted: Mar 2, 2012 11:09:11 PM

Bring on the blender pumps!

ND ethanol-blended fuel sales nearly double in 2011

The sale of ethanol-blended fuel in North Dakota nearly doubled from 2010 to 2011. According to the North Dakota Tax Department, more than 1.3 million gallons were sold in 2011. This is a 97 percent increase over the 663,727 gallons sold in 2010.

Not bad when you consider that ND has a realively small population base.

The program has been successful in establishing North Dakota as national leader in blender pump infrastructure. Currently, there are 221 blender pumps applied for or installed in 44 communities statewide.

Bring on the blender pumps!
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goldseeker
Champion Author West Virginia

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Message Posted: Mar 2, 2012 11:04:51 PM

97 Plymouth??? Give me a break. I have already used E20 in a 67 Ford. Works fine.

[Edited by: goldseeker at 3/2/2012 11:07:58 PM EST]
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gamechanger2011
Champion Author Wichita

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Message Posted: Mar 2, 2012 8:09:10 PM

How much has government given big oil in subsidies...would love to have that figure!
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bowler93
All-Star Author Pennsylvania

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Message Posted: Mar 2, 2012 6:50:32 PM

Good, because E15 is only approved for cars 2001 or newer and my one car is a 1997, so if all the E10 stations switched to E15 I wouldn't be able to drive my '97 Plymouth. I'd probably have to get rid of it.
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DaisysMomNC
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Message Posted: Feb 22, 2012 1:33:24 PM

Good - they need to completely get rid of ethanol. It is not cost effective at all!!!
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jacksfan
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Message Posted: Feb 22, 2012 11:17:48 AM

"As I've said repeatedly Jackie, I've never personally received a subsidy in my life. I work, and I get payed for my work. It's as simple as that..."

You know what you've also said repeatedly, shocky? That the secondary beneficiary of a subsidy is no different that the recipient.

Good luck finding anyone to agree with you that an employee of a public institution -- in your a case, a university where students who attend are heavily subsidized -- are not a secondary beneficiary of all of the state and federal subsidy dollars that flow into your institution.

By your own definition, shocky, you are a subsidy recipient. And the fact that you continue to accept those subsidies while claiming to be opposed to all subsidies is hypocrisy in its purest form.

[Edited by: jacksfan at 2/22/2012 11:18:42 AM EST]
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zippok
Sophomore Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Feb 21, 2012 7:06:09 PM

They ought to ban the use of ethanol mixed with gas.
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GM1954
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Message Posted: Feb 21, 2012 6:41:31 PM

"As I've said repeatedly Jackie, I've never personally received a subsidy in my life. I work, and I get payed for my work. It's as simple as that... "

You talk in circles. According to you if the fuel dealer recieves a tax credit, the ethanol industry is subsidized. Following that logic, if the university is subsidized by state and federal dollars, your salary is subsidized as well. You can't have it both ways.
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Shockjock1961
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Message Posted: Feb 21, 2012 2:07:47 PM

"You claim to be opposed to all subsidies, yet you accept them"

As I've said repeatedly Jackie, I've never personally received a subsidy in my life. I work, and I get payed for my work. It's as simple as that...
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jacksfan
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Message Posted: Feb 21, 2012 1:48:00 PM

"I've yet to see where I've been shown to do one thing while doing the exact opposite Jackie..."

That's only because you don't want to see it, Shocky. You claim to be opposed to all subsidies, yet you accept them. That's hypocrisy in its purest form.
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Shockjock1961
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Feb 21, 2012 11:31:28 AM

"Have you dropped hyour membership to a teachers union or SEIU?"

Sorry to inform you GM, but I'm not a member of any union. Try again...
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aRBy
All-Star Author Grand Rapids

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Message Posted: Feb 21, 2012 11:28:10 AM

It's not such a bad thing that they blocked the 15% blend. It's really not necessary. 10% ethanol is fine. It's purpose is to clean the emissions; not use less gasoline (although that's another benefit).

If people want to use more ethanol in their fuel, they can experiment by putting a gallon or two of E85 in their car when they fill up. A gallon or two of E85 once in a while isn't going to ruin a car. (I wonder if some people are going to go ballistic at this last statement.)

As gasoline prices go up, it won't surprise me to see more people experimenting with E85. I'm told that cars built after 2002 can run on E85. I don't know if that's true, but a person filling up at the pump told me that he ran his Dodge Caravan (not flex-fuel) for over 100,000 miles on E85 and never had a problem.

The EFI computers typically put in cars today can handle E85.
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GrumpyCat
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Message Posted: Feb 21, 2012 11:05:35 AM

A science committee approved bill is still a LONG WAY from becoming law.
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krzysiek_ck
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Feb 21, 2012 10:13:11 AM

"I've yet to see where I've been shown to do one thing while doing the exact opposite Jackie..."

Here is a quick reminder for you Shockjock1961. You claimed to report users for personal attacks while doing the excellent job in that department yourself.


[Edited by: krzysiek_ck at 2/21/2012 10:20:33 AM EST]
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GM1954
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Message Posted: Feb 21, 2012 10:10:11 AM

"I've yet to see where I've been shown to do one thing while doing the exact opposite Jackie... "

I'm not so sure of that shockjock. Your animosity towards farmers runs pretty deep. When talking about farmers and landowners with USDA contracts, I think one of the words you used was "crook".

Have you dropped hyour membership to a teachers union or SEIU? Put your money where your mouth is.
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Shockjock1961
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Feb 21, 2012 10:02:01 AM

"Shocky, on the other hand, says one thing while doing the exact opposite = hypocrisy"

I've yet to see where I've been shown to do one thing while doing the exact opposite Jackie...
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Shockjock1961
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Feb 21, 2012 10:00:00 AM

"Shockjock1961 has claimed that he works in the Physics Department at the University of Illinois"

No, that's the assumption that has been made, an assumption that is incorrect I might add. Before you embarrass yourself Jackie by stating that I did indeed claim this, look through the postings and try to find where I stated that the above is fact...
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jacksfan
Champion Author Lincoln

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Message Posted: Feb 21, 2012 9:57:13 AM

"jacksfan, and what exactly are your credentials when it comes to credibility?"

I'm pro-ethanol. I choose to use ethanol every time I fill up.

I don't know what the antonym of hypocrisy is, but actions speak louder than words.

Shocky, on the other hand, says one thing while doing the exact opposite = hypocrisy.

[Edited by: jacksfan at 2/21/2012 9:58:52 AM EST]
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Shockjock1961
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Feb 21, 2012 9:56:06 AM

"The government spends billions every year subsidizing your job and your industry, shocky"

As I've said before Jackie, The government should stop all subsidies, that's not what the government is there for. It's a simple concept, no matter how you try to twist it...
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GM1954
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Feb 21, 2012 9:36:18 AM

"GM1954, and amazingly as the price of oil / gas rises, so does e85 prices. Isn't that odd..."

It's as odd as the price of gasoline increasing as the supply of crude oil decreases. That's a tough one to figure, too.

"Guess no incentive when your mandated by the government..."

You assume too much. I filled up yesterday with E85. I paid $3.16 per gallon for E85. Regular gasoline at the same station was $3.46. Sorry to burst your delusion.
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reb4
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Message Posted: Feb 21, 2012 8:34:24 AM

jacksfan, and what exactly are your credentials when it comes to credibility?

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reb4
Champion Author Chicago

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Message Posted: Feb 21, 2012 8:27:28 AM

GM1954, and amazingly as the price of oil / gas rises, so does e85 prices. Isn't that odd... Guess no incentive when your mandated by the government...

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GM1954
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Feb 21, 2012 7:40:16 AM

The Anti-Ethanol™ crowd has certainly been silent the past few days.

Oil prices at nine month high after Iran dispute
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jacksfan
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Message Posted: Feb 20, 2012 2:28:20 PM

Sure, reb4.

Shockjock1961 has claimed that he works in the Physics Department at the University of Illinois. He also claims he's opposed to all subsidies. We all know how heavily subsided higher education is. Whether you agree or disagree with subsidies to higher education, you surely agree that it's a bit disingenuous for someone to claim they are opposed to all subsidies while at the same time accepting subsidies and working in such a heavily subsidized industry. Shocky also likes to rail against the farm lobby -- at least he used to, until it was pointed out that the education lobby far, far outspends the farm lobby. He also likes to make bold, unfounded claims about what agriculture is and isn't and about what it does and doesn't do.

I think hypocrisy goes to one's character which goes to one's credibility as a message board poster. Don't you?
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