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Author Topic: Why E85 is better than gasoline Back to Topics
James48843

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Michigan

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Message Posted: Mar 4, 2011 10:49:24 AM

Pirates seize Oil Tanker with $200 million in crude[br]You don't see Somali pirates chasing down John Deere tractors in Illinois, now do you?

No better reason than that to switch to a flex-fuel car, and fill it up with American-made E85.



[Edited by: James48843 at 3/4/2011 10:50:33 AM EST]
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nurdco
Champion Author Colorado Springs

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Message Posted: Jul 15, 2013 4:21:30 PM

Go get a physical and mental tests

e85 DOES CONTAIN GASOLINE..

[Edited by: nurdco at 7/15/2013 4:22:32 PM EST]
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Chazzer
Champion Author Nevada

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Message Posted: Jul 15, 2013 2:26:06 PM

No way!
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gman32MI
Champion Author Detroit

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Message Posted: Jun 19, 2013 6:58:49 PM

all this talk about E85 an gas.. but no year or type of car truck an so on.. so what are you really crying about? this isnt an youtube experince.. just sayn. idk much about the E85 but i do know i wont use it if i dont know what the heck it is.. not worth tareing up a working eng.
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SilverStreaker
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Jun 16, 2013 5:57:18 PM

More Oil Tanker Piracy, this time in Nigeria.

Still no mention of ethanol piracy, except for rum.
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krzysiek_ck
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Apr 23, 2013 8:23:14 AM

borsht, you have made multiple claims how modern vehicles are not designed to run on Ethanol but on gasoline. You have also claimed to "know enough chemistry and engineering". So, use your knowledge and explain to me how the modern cars are designed to run on gasoline but not on Ethanol. Let me give you a hand and list some of the chemicals used in E0 gasoline.

For a longer list visit Marathon 90 Recreational Gasoline (E0) Material Safety Data Sheet

Toluene, Weight % 1-15 (paint thinner and octane booster)
Xylene, Weight % 2-10 (paint thinner and octane booster)

These two and others, like Benzene, really do not play well with plastics and rubbers.

Please, share your knowledge, back it up with facts like Chemical Resistance Charts, on how exactly the modern cars are designed to run on gasoline but not on Ethanol.


[Edited by: krzysiek_ck at 4/23/2013 8:28:44 AM EST]
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SoylentGrain
All-Star Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Apr 23, 2013 7:37:07 AM

"You compare paint thinner to Ethanol?"

You missed the point. Gasoline is composed of about 500 different aliphatic and aromatic hydrocarbon molecules. Most of the components of paint thinner are, indeed, found in gasoline.
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tdioiler
All-Star Author Detroit

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Message Posted: Apr 22, 2013 10:05:05 PM

I would like to get generator to run ethanol; one truly built for it not just modified to be able to handle it.
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borsht
Champion Author Oakland

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Message Posted: Apr 22, 2013 4:06:07 PM

krzysiek_ck asked, “Using your chemistry and engineering knowledge explain to me in what way is paint thinner used as a common chemical in E0 gasoline better than ethanol. Also, explain to me how my 1994 turbo car is not designed to run on ethanol.”
Incidentally if you use LATEX paint, water is paint thinner. But you know this and IMHO you just like to obfuscate on this board.

However, let's assume you are making reference to oil based paint. A very broad range of paint in and of itself.

You compare paint thinner to Ethanol? Ethanol is specific chemical. Paint thinner is just that paint thinner, It is generally very poisonous or toxic. They are as different as apples and oranges.
I sincerely think you are intelligent enough to NOT burn 10% paint thinner in your car. Solvents used as paint thinners include:
• Mineral spirits (US) / White spirit (UK)
• Acetone
• Mineral turpentine (turps)
• True turpentine
• Naphtha
• Methyl ethyl ketone (MEK)
• Dimethylformamide (DMF)
• 2-Butoxyethanol, or any of the other glycol ethers
Other solvents sometimes used in the production of paint thinners include:[1]
• Ethylbenzene
• Xylene
• n-butyl acetate
• Butan-1-ol
• Most of which are not polar, if polar very much less than is ethanol. A small molecule in comparison.

• If you put just 1% let alone 10% of these hydrocarbons in your gasoline tank frequently you would have severe elastomer problems, as well as severe problems with the EPA.

• Also, I don’t know why you compare paint thinner to ethanol. Ethanol is very polar and a solute for water, paint thinner is not polar and is not a solute for water.

• I’ll leave you to do your own research on your turbo car.
• Incidentally, my son has done quite bit of research on jet turbines and thrust vectoring of Jet engines. Did a thesis on the subject; And has over 30 patents on jets and jet ancillary components. So, I certainly know enough not to comment on this subject. Maybe someone else can be of help for you on this turbo subject.


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krzysiek_ck
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Apr 21, 2013 9:21:20 AM

borsht wrote: "I know enough chemistry and engineering to to realize that it makes no sense for me to be a guinea pig for the ethanol lobby."

Using your chemistry and engineering knowledge explain to me in what way is paint thinner used as a common chemical in E0 gasoline better than ethanol. Also, explain to me how my 1994 turbo car is not designed to run on ethanol.
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borsht
Champion Author Oakland

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Message Posted: Apr 21, 2013 9:02:47 AM

I have no experience with E85; I know enough chemistry and engineering to to realize that it makes no sense for me to be a guinea pig for the ethanol lobby.
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krzysiek_ck
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Apr 20, 2013 6:34:43 PM

Shockjock1961 wrote: "That's EXACTLY what I've been saying... "

I have been asking you about your personal experience using E85. So far I hear crickets. As you have proved on multiple occasions ignorance is indeed a bliss.
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krzysiek_ck
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Apr 20, 2013 6:30:53 PM

borsht wrote: "E85 is crap. It is a compromise and ends up the worst of all.
If you want to use alcohol design a pure alcohol engine."

I have a turbo car and E35 (blend mix) works as good if not better than 100 octane racing fuel for me. What is your personal experience with E85?
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Shockjock1961
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Message Posted: Apr 20, 2013 2:49:50 PM

"E85 is crap"

That's EXACTLY what I've been saying...
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borsht
Champion Author Oakland

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Message Posted: Apr 20, 2013 2:31:10 PM

E85 is crap. It is a compromise and ends up the worst of all.
If you want to use alcohol design a pure alcohol engine.

If a 650 horsepower IndyCar Series race car can run on 100 percent ethanol, without compromising performance or safety, so can a personal automobile or truck. Forget any negative criticisms you may have heard about corn ethanol and listen to the truth—Alcohol is a better fuel than gasoline.

100% alcohol is a superior fuel for spark ignition internal combustion engines; but only if the engine is optimized to run on alcohol. The flex-fuel E-85 cars and trucks available today have gasoline engines that are not optimized to use alcohol.

“The Flex-Fuel Vehicles (FFVs) produced today, use fairly typical gasoline engines, which, because they must retain dual-fuel capability, are not able to take full advantage of the favorable combustion characteristics of alcohols.
“Engines optimized for alcohol fuel use, on the other hand, may yield efficiencies that exceed that of state-of-the-art diesel engines—or, about one third higher than that of FFV engines. In earlier engine research at EPA with neat [100%] methanol and ethanol, for example, over 40% brake thermal efficiency was achieved over a relatively broad range of loads and speeds, with peak levels reaching over 42%. Similar work has also been performed with E85, yielding up to 20% fuel economy improvement over baseline gasoline engines.”
Economical, High-Efficiency Engine Technologies for Alcohol Fuels size: 134 Kb - 10 pages
www.americanenergyindependence.com/alcoholengines.aspx
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nichols
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Message Posted: Apr 20, 2013 11:54:33 AM

Lets see--North America is now awash with crude and we still feel a need to use ethanol with the gas. Boy are we gullible. We do not need any crude from sources outside the americas
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Shockjock1961
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Apr 19, 2013 9:33:23 AM

" But the intangible costs of global warming (yes it's very real), loss of American soldiers' life in various OPEC-member conflicts, tax payments for military deployments for same"

So how has ethanol reduced the costs of the military and their deployment? As for global warming what tangible losses have come about because of this, as of yet, unproven phenomenon?
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Motty
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Message Posted: Apr 18, 2013 5:52:56 PM

I worked out the numbers long since. I even set up a spreadsheet to help me know when buying Everclear would be economical for my Flex-fuel vehicle over gasoline. (Turns out, it's when E10 costs about $56/gal, at current prices of $15.49/750mL of ethanol.)
In megajoules of energy per liter, the numbers are as follows:
E100, pure ethanol, has 19.59 MJ/L energy content.
E0, pure gasoline, has 29 MJ/L energy content.
E10, common mix, has 28.06 MJ/L energy content.

But wait! I come not to bury ethanol but to praise it. It's true that there are different chemicals we could use for fuel; and they have different energies. But the intangible costs of global warming (yes it's very real), loss of American soldiers' life in various OPEC-member conflicts, tax payments for military deployments for same, economic loss of all that money going to foreign oil suppliers, even sums of money gone to domestic scumbag Big Oil firms, major effects of pollution and chemical health effects, and more in that vein add up to huge numbers in expenditure. If you don't pay it at the pump but you instead pay it at your kids' and your hospital checkout and to the IRS, is the money any less lost? We can adapt to a different chemical as our fuel. You need a better reason to oppose ethanol than, "They didn't use it as a fuel when I was a kid."
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ugly46
Champion Author Indiana

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Message Posted: Apr 18, 2013 5:22:45 PM

The people that want to buy it because it is cheaper can have the reduced mpg..
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Shockjock1961
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Apr 15, 2013 1:58:09 PM

"OK shockjock, you demonstrated you can copy what I previously posted. Now, go learn what it means."

Are you saying you don't know what it means? Because simple algebra reveals the answer...
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SoylentGrain
All-Star Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Apr 15, 2013 12:13:49 PM

OK shockjock, you demonstrated you can copy what I previously posted. Now, go learn what it means.
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Shockjock1961
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Apr 15, 2013 10:12:52 AM

Simple physics SG...
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Shockjock1961
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Apr 15, 2013 10:12:35 AM

Pressure is equal to energy divided by volume. If you increase the energy of a gas in a given volumetric space twofold, you increase the temperature of the gas twofold...

[Edited by: Shockjock1961 at 4/15/2013 10:13:32 AM EST]
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Shockjock1961
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Apr 15, 2013 10:06:19 AM

"Show me the equation"

In it's most basic form:

PV=nRT

[Edited by: Shockjock1961 at 4/15/2013 10:07:16 AM EST]
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Shockjock1961
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Apr 15, 2013 10:03:24 AM

A meta study on the EROEI of ethanol has found that the resource sits just above parity. This means that ethanol is essentially an exchange of energy forms. Energy stored in the form of corn, natural gas, and electricity is put into a refinery and a similar amount of energy in the form of ethanol is the output. The low EROEI greatly affects the economics of ethanol by making profits especially sensitive to volatile corn and natural gas input prices. The massive bankruptcies in the ethanol market show just how vulnerable the industry is.
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SoylentGrain
All-Star Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Apr 15, 2013 7:50:48 AM

"It's simple Physics SG, not magic..."

Show me the equation.
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Shockjock1961
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Apr 14, 2013 2:17:04 PM

"Try again, einstein"

I don't need to.

It's simple Physics SG, not magic...
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SoylentGrain
All-Star Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Apr 14, 2013 8:35:28 AM

Try again, einstein.
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Shockjock1961
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Message Posted: Apr 13, 2013 8:04:50 PM

"Two gallons of a fuel does not burn hotter than one gallon."

Two gallons of gasoline with enough oxidizer for complete combustion DOES burn hotter when done so in a confined space as compared to one gallon of gasoline with enough oxidizer for complete combustion when it is burned in the same volume of confined space...
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tdioiler
All-Star Author Detroit

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Message Posted: Apr 13, 2013 3:19:17 PM

Did you see the news that the EPA is about to get a new appointed head? Oh crap, here we go again!!
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SoylentGrain
All-Star Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Apr 13, 2013 1:14:08 PM

"Sorry SG, but ethanol does burn cooler then gasoline, due to it's lower BTU value. The only wayt to get it to burn "hotter" is to burn more of it."

It doesn't work that way. Two gallons of a fuel does not burn hotter than one gallon. For any given proportion of fuel and air, the combustion temperature will be the same, regardless of amount of fuel. How is it possible that you work at a major university, in the physics department and don't understand this?
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goldseeker
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Message Posted: Apr 13, 2013 12:56:13 PM

"The country would be much better off if the government stopped "helping" us with our fuel development.'

SoyLetGrain: You are spot on! Actually most of government is made up of people that are corrupt, or have little experience that qualifies them for their positions.

I could name names of folks in DC that are in charge of science based programs that doe not even have a high school diploma.

I could also name names of former senior members of different agencies that were hired away to be lobbyists for the food, drug, and oil industries.
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SoylentGrain
All-Star Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Apr 13, 2013 8:03:49 AM

Goldseeker, I saw that the day she spoke. My jaw hit the floor.

It's not just her. I was on a plane a few years ago and sat with a researcher from the DOE. He worked with alternate energy. He was just as much in the dark as the EPA person in the clip. The country would be much better off if the government stopped "helping" us with our fuel development.
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goldseeker
Champion Author West Virginia

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Message Posted: Apr 13, 2013 1:41:39 AM

And just who is the EPA?

As you can see their experts do not have a clue.
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waynemustang
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Message Posted: Apr 12, 2013 4:31:42 PM

Use E50 for best fuel.
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krzysiek_ck
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Message Posted: Apr 12, 2013 2:50:05 PM

Shockjock1961 wrote: "The only wayt to get it to burn "hotter" is to burn more of it."

Wrong, what a surprise. Leaner mixture runs hotter because there is less fuel to absorb heat. That is also why Ethanol is better than gasoline since it can be burned leaner without causing detonation.
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Shockjock1961
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Message Posted: Apr 12, 2013 1:54:35 PM

"Einstein, under identical conditions it burns cooler. Any modern engine, of course, changes the conditions under which either ethanol or gasoline is burned."

Sorry SG, but ethanol does burn cooler then gasoline, due to it's lower BTU value. The only wayt to get it to burn "hotter" is to burn more of it. Granted that's what a mordd FFV engine does, injects more ethanol per cycle to compensate for the lower heat value (which is why the injectors pulse width is increased as the concentration of ethanol goes up), but when you do that the mileage goes down...
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SoylentGrain
All-Star Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Apr 11, 2013 1:12:44 AM

Sorry, can't help you there.
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tdioiler
All-Star Author Detroit

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Message Posted: Apr 10, 2013 9:32:38 PM

Soylent, so the EPA doesn't test with ethanol, then how can anyone on these forums really say that the EPA knows how ethanol would affect the current ICE design on durability? Do you think more calculations?

So what's the story; does the EPA know the harm or ethanol or not?
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SilverStreaker
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Message Posted: Apr 10, 2013 7:44:15 PM

Jayburt, can you provide proof of this "proven FACT"? If you are talking about the BTU content, you should read the topic BTU's are 35% less for Ethanol but we are not heating water...
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Jayburt
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Message Posted: Apr 10, 2013 6:18:02 PM

SilverStreaker, your argument may be more valid if it wasn't a proven FACT that it gives 27% percent less energy than standard gasoline. Know you like to go by 'pro ethanol' sites only but the FACT is it doesn't improve engine operation as the way it is currently being made, if it was made to improve everyone would want to use it and would be using it. Ignore Facts if you want but I'll choose to go by them
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SilverStreaker
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Apr 10, 2013 10:02:34 AM

Besides missing the science behind hot/cold burning, he's also ignorant that mechanics use the term "cold burning" when they see a dark colored spark plug tip, meaning that the engine is running too rich and "hot burning" for when the engine is running too lean.
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SoylentGrain
All-Star Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Apr 9, 2013 6:53:29 PM

"One shill says ethanol burns cooler then gasoline, another claims it burns hotter.... "

Einstein, under identical conditions it burns cooler. Any modern engine, of course, changes the conditions under which either ethanol or gasoline is burned. And you say you work in a physics lab? These are basic concepts that are passing over your head.
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teaman91
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Message Posted: Apr 9, 2013 6:50:48 PM

its 27% less efficent than gasoline and I dont want to buy it because it is only 25c less. IT IS NOT WORTH IT
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Shockjock1961
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Message Posted: Apr 9, 2013 3:11:25 PM

"It burns more completely and at a slightly cooler temperature than gasoline"

LOL!!!

One shill says ethanol burns cooler then gasoline, another claims it burns hotter....
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SilverStreaker
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Apr 9, 2013 3:00:40 PM

Jayburt, according to the US Dept of Energy:
"Ethanol helps keep engines clean, too. It burns more completely and at a slightly cooler temperature than gasoline. This means longer spark plug life and fewer combustion deposits. Ethanol burns well because it is an oxygenate, meaning that ethanol molecules contain oxygen. Oxygen atoms inside ethanol join forces with oxygen molecules in the air to help ethanol burn more completely. This extra amount of oxygen also helps gasoline burn better when it is blended with ethanol."
Just the Basics
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BigHorne1
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Message Posted: Apr 9, 2013 2:16:40 PM

No and if your vehicle runs on it, you will get less mpg, so no use of it.
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Jayburt
Champion Author Toledo

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Message Posted: Apr 9, 2013 1:01:25 PM

SilverStreaker, ask any honest mechanic and if you've been using it you have engine deposits over and above what pure gasoline users have.Thats not opinion but FACT and many studies have shown it,not hard to find just google 'ethanol use in gasoline engines'
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SoylentGrain
All-Star Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Apr 9, 2013 7:22:05 AM

"o who is EPS? Do they really matter when compared to EPA standards? "

That was obviously a typo. Again, the EPA does not test with ethanol. They use a reference fuel called indolene clear. It's composed of only several chemicals, instead of the several hundred contained in gasoline. The EPA ESTIMATES are a calculated value for both ethanol and gasoline. Not a drop of ethanol is used in their testing. So, it's a meaningless number, with regard to fuel economy.
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tdioiler
All-Star Author Detroit

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Message Posted: Apr 8, 2013 8:39:36 PM

Soylent, The ratings have to be backed up with dyno and bench testing to 'calc' MPG.

So who is EPS? Do they really matter when compared to EPA standards?
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SoylentGrain
All-Star Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Apr 6, 2013 8:40:48 AM

"For example, The flex-fuel 2010 Chevrolet Impala equipped with a 3.5-liter V-6 engine gets an EPA-estimated 18/29 mpg (city/highway) on gasoline and 14/21 mpg when burning E85. :

The EPS does not test with ethanol. That mileage estimates are calculated. So, any cost comparisons are meaningless.
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