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Author Topic: Cash/Credit Feature Back to Topics
EdWoods

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Maryland

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Message Posted: Jun 20, 2014 10:05:59 AM

GB Moderators - If this is not the place for this post, I apologize. I read the Post on the new features including Cash/Credit pricing, but comments are not allowed there (Why Not?) so I'm going this route. If I'm out of line, Please let me know, it is not intentional.My question: Why do we put up with Cash/Credit differentials?? Why not just post the Credit Price and be done with it? I, for one, am extremely unhappy with having a discount for cash. Why should I be penalized for having good credit, while those with bad/no credit are rewarded? To that end, I do not buy from stations that charge me more for having good credit, and I urge everyone else to do the same. Thanks for the opportunity to voice my opinion.
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scoutmaster
Champion Author Pittsburgh

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Message Posted: Jun 26, 2014 10:44:28 AM

rick_evans,

Thanks.

What people don't seem to realize is most retailers charge one price for merchandise and service regardless of the payments method. And they have been for decades!
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rick_evans
Champion Author Boston

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Message Posted: Jun 26, 2014 9:30:53 AM

@scoutmaster --"You stated you have a Discover card. Is it a rewards card? "

Yes.
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scoutmaster
Champion Author Pittsburgh

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Message Posted: Jun 26, 2014 9:06:34 AM

Missing payments is a major factor but not the only factor that affects your FICO score.

You never save money when you buy something with a credit card then pay the credit card bill by sending in the minimum monthly payment.
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rick_evans
Champion Author Boston

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Message Posted: Jun 26, 2014 8:15:16 AM

@scoutmaster --" If their credit is bad enough and they do have a credit card, there is a very good chance it is a secured credit card."

Maybe I should have said mediocre credit. I don't have a secured credit card but a person can start off with the same card I have and use it stupidly. They might have several NON-SECURED cards charge too much, carry monthly balances and miss occasional payments. That will lower their FICO score resulting in mediocre credit.

CORRECTION TO EARLIER STATEMENT: I WROTE: "Why should people people who pay with credit and don't chase rewards points be punished for seeking the lowest price, period. "

SHOULD HAVE WROTE: Why should people people who pay with CASH and don't chase rewards points be punished for seeking the lowest price, period?



[Edited by: rick_evans at 6/26/2014 8:16:01 AM EST]
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RichWLIN
Champion Author Indiana

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Message Posted: Jun 26, 2014 8:14:24 AM

"LOL! What makes you think people with lousy credit don't have credit cards? In many cases that's why they have lousy credit."

True enough. And, this doesn't necessarily mean that they have defaulted using credit cards. It is possible to actually over extend simply by applying for and or accepting too many credit cards. Aggregate sums of possible or potential plastic buying power in your pocket can be detrimental to credit scores if this exceeds the amount of income available to pay for it.

There are plenty of legitimate reasons to choose to pay with cash.

RG
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scoutmaster
Champion Author Pittsburgh

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Message Posted: Jun 26, 2014 8:07:46 AM

As rick_evans stated, people with poor credit do have credit cards. If their credit is bad enough and they do have a credit card, there is a very good chance it is a secured credit card.

rick_evans,

You stated you have a Discover card. Is it a rewards card?
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rick_evans
Champion Author Boston

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Message Posted: Jun 26, 2014 7:57:57 AM

@EdWoods --"I, for one, am extremely unhappy with having a discount for cash."

Why? What's stopping you from paying with cash. Oh, you want cash payers and station to subsidize your X% rewards on your credit card. For the record I pay for gas with a Discover card and use stations with same cash/credit pricing. Around here they tend to be as cheap as those with a price differential.

"Why should I be penalized for having good credit, while those with bad/no credit are rewarded?"

LOL! What makes you think people with lousy credit don't have credit cards? In many cases that's why they have lousy credit. Why should people people who pay with credit and don't chase rewards points be punished for seeking the lowest price, period.

[Edited by: rick_evans at 6/26/2014 8:06:35 AM EST]
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RichWLIN
Champion Author Indiana

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Message Posted: Jun 26, 2014 12:25:02 AM

TxJeans continues: "Regardless, Rich's post of Scout's info did NOT fit his claim."

You just have to have the last word providing nothing more than your insulting opinion never once offering any facts in support of your position. This is exactly what the scoutmaster does. You are no different and these kinds of baseless comments are precisely why these episodes reoccur again and again.

RG

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scoutmaster
Champion Author Pittsburgh

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Message Posted: Jun 25, 2014 7:25:53 PM

How could you possibly be penalized for having good credit? Having good credit gives you almost unlimited buying power.
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Gas_Buddy
Champion Author Maryland

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Message Posted: Jun 25, 2014 6:40:18 PM

TxJeans wrote: "--I disagree with him that he is being "penalized" for having good credit. There are folks with GREAT credit that still will chose to pay cash at a dual priced station. I am surprised that a particular poster has not added his two cents on paying cash."

I have enough ego to think that TxJeans was referring to me but I think that what TxJeans wrote previously (in any number o posts) covers a lot of the reasons for paying cash or posting cash prices, but having "bad credit" doesn't preclude some people from having and using a credit card, nor does having good credit stop people from paying cash. It's a matter of circumstances, benefits versus "costs", and personal preference.
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TxJeans
Champion Author Tampa

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Message Posted: Jun 25, 2014 6:07:49 PM

Yes Scrap, there is blame on both sides.

And, I don't have time to search these forums with no really good search feature, so I will let others judge the players as they may be. Regardless, Rich's post of Scout's info did NOT fit his claim.

NOW - Can we get back to the ORIGINAL topic??

--I agree with the OP on the need to return (and even improve) comments.
--I disagree with he comment about just posting the credit price and being done with it for many reasons posted below and in many other threads.
--I disagree with him that he is being "penalized" for having good credit. There are folks with GREAT credit that still will chose to pay cash at a dual priced station. I am surprised that a particular poster has not added his two cents on paying cash.
-- I don't know about his area price spread between cash and credit at dual priced stations, or between cash at dual priced and standard pricing at mono priced stations, or his cash back/reward level, but with my PF card, I can beat or meat the cash price at the dual priced stations on my normal commute by a station also w/in that normal commute (no need to travel off my beaten path). That said, YMMV.
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Scrapheap
Champion Author Virginia

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Message Posted: Jun 25, 2014 11:51:22 AM

ZimCity wrote > Could we just discuss the topic and quit harping on this ridiculous grudge against Scoutmaster you two apparently refuse to drop.

ZimCity also wrote > For the rest of us, it's a bit discourteous to constantly hijack threads into us vs him nonsense.

Isn't scoutmaster at least equally to blame?
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RichWLIN
Champion Author Indiana

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Message Posted: Jun 25, 2014 11:40:22 AM

If you really think me a poseur, then I would invite you to addrees me offline for contact information and an invitation to my place of business where, like it or not, what you see here is what you will get in person.

RG
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Zimcity
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Jun 25, 2014 11:32:24 AM

"That you call me a liar here is somewhat upsetting"

I have not called you a liar, a poseur perhaps but not a liar.

" but it is certainly not just with two other members. "

Of late it is primarily between two members. For the rest of us, it's a bit discourteous to constantly hijack threads into us vs him nonsense.

[Edited by: Zimcity at 6/25/2014 11:34:15 AM EST]
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RichWLIN
Champion Author Indiana

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Message Posted: Jun 25, 2014 11:07:54 AM

ZimCity says: "WE all know what you did, trying to represent yourself as some sort of Boy Scout is disingenuous and kind of pathetic."

Again, I don't deny that I fronted off the scoutmaster back in May and I'm certainly not trying to represent myself as anything more than a bluntly honest SOB. I was man enough to admit the error in judgment then and apologized to you for insulting your sensibilities.

You are obviously less courteous with me. That you call me a liar here is somewhat upsetting, but is as baseless and untrue as were the remarks of TxJeans. She brought up this incident again, without any first-hand knowledge of it mind you, in a similar attempt to connect outing someone here with being dishonest.

I'd like to give it a rest. I can understand that you don't like the back and forth banter between the scoutmaster and others, but it is certainly not just with two other members. He is the common denominator. Where is your indignation for his behavior?

RG

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Zimcity
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Jun 25, 2014 10:20:42 AM

Give it a rest RichWLIN.

WE all know what you did, trying to represent yourself as some sort of Boy Scout is disingenuous and kind of pathetic.

Furthermore, you and Byte_Doc continually responding to behavior which you describe as trolling in the first place, doesn't exactly fit your self-description either.

Could we just discuss the topic and quit harping on this ridiculous grudge against Scoutmaster you two apparently refuse to drop.
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RichWLIN
Champion Author Indiana

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Message Posted: Jun 25, 2014 9:04:44 AM

TxJeans claims: "What you posted did not fit your description of how you post."

So again I would ask that you please provide examples of where I have ever made contributions to a conversation that are "in any way artificial, disingenuous or deceitful?"

Please point out where I have ever lined up with anyone who represents themselves through "falsification, embellishment or rationalization".

This was the gist of my comments that you now claim do not represent my writings. If you must continue making this assertion, then please provide some evidence of it other than just your opinion. These kind of baseless accusations are exactly what I was talking about.

TxJeans says: "It was lead in to the rest of my post"

I well understood your remark to be a segue into the rest of your post; however, there is no connection to a discussion of open honesty in a cloaked forum. This was apparently nothing more than your attempt at a slight that you "couldn't resist".

Truth be known, you only heard of the incident with the scoutmaster and didn't actually see what was said by either party. As far as you are concerned, this is little more than second hand gossip of a subject that you decided to revive here.

You might not like the things I say or the way I say them, but you'll be hard pressed to find an example of purposely misrepresenting facts or worse yet lying. You won't find me even siding with anyone who is patently dishonest. Ask yourself, can you say the same?

RG
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scoutmaster
Champion Author Pittsburgh

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Message Posted: Jun 25, 2014 8:59:25 AM

"As for why not just post the credit price and be done with it?

Not practical. Many areas of the country have cash/credit dual priced stations."

I don't know if there are more areas that have dual pricing than those that don't. I tend to think there are less with dual pricing. Actually if non-dual priced stations included all the credit card fees in the price/gal they would make a larger profit on the cash paying customers.
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TxJeans
Champion Author Tampa

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Message Posted: Jun 25, 2014 8:11:50 AM

<<<"I'm sorry no, I don't see your point. You seem to have taken one paragraph of my last post to bring up an unrelated incident.">>>

No Rich, it was not unrelated. It was lead in to the rest of my post...What you posted did not fit your description of how you post. We have all posted things we probably shouldn't have posted or could have worded better. I was not arguing with you as much as pointing out that we ALL could do a better job, even if that means sometimes ignoring some folks (especially those that are on mutual ignore with another).

As for the cliques - I have been WB or PM'd about opinions I made that just happened to align with others that are "out" of the clique. I was not supporting the posts of the particular person as written, but was agreeing with a concept and expressing my opinion.

Read the rest of my previous post.

******

Now, back to the OP...

I agree about the comments.

As for why not just post the credit price and be done with it?

Not practical. Many areas of the country have cash/credit dual priced stations. In many areas the custom is to post the CASH price at the curb. Many/most prices are posted from the LARGE sign at the curb as not everyone pulls into a station pump every day - for multiple stations.

That said, there are other areas that apparently require (or common practice) is to post either the highest price at the curb, or both the cash and credit price at the curb.

There is no common and perfect solution. Even with both fields available, it will be likely that in many areas the credit fields will be empty or stale since they are not posted at the curb. In other areas, it may be the reverse if the credit price is mandated/customarily posted at the curb.

As to being penalized for having good credit, that is NOT the case or at least not the reason for displaying cash. Each business needs to make their own business decision on the pricing mode based on the costs involved and their customer base and local regulations.

Around me, I can usually beat any cash price at another station (or even at a dual priced station) with my credit card with 5% cash back. And, I know one commuter that has 2 cards to make sure he gets the 5% on all his gas, and the wife has one that they can use to fill the cars on the weekend so they always get 5%. At least for him and for me, that 5% is usually (always has been for me) better than the cash discount.
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Byte_Doctor
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Message Posted: Jun 25, 2014 7:17:10 AM

"Rich stated after he posted a members personal information that he is not sorry for posting what he posted. It's exceptionally sad and telling to see another member endorses this."

I'd be interested to know which member you believe endorses Rich posting personal information about another member.
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scoutmaster
Champion Author Pittsburgh

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Message Posted: Jun 25, 2014 5:11:02 AM

Since this really has nothing to do with this topic, I'll only post one more time about this. Rich stated after he posted a members personal information that he is not sorry for posting what he posted. It's exceptionally sad and telling to see another member endorses this.
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RichWLIN
Champion Author Indiana

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Message Posted: Jun 25, 2014 4:59:22 AM

TXJeans quips: "You know what they say about folks living in glass houses not throwing rocks?"

I'm sorry no, I don't see your point. You seem to have taken one paragraph of my last post to bring up an unrelated incident. If you would care to point out even one disingenuous statement I've made anywhere in support of your cliche insinuation, then please feel free to do so. Fronting off the scoutmaster is clearly not a relevant example.

Making an obnoxious members identity known in direct retaliation for his aggressive personal comments was regrettable and done in a heated moment of haste. I apologized to the member who said it offended him, and to anyone else it might have other than the person who it was meant to. There is no dishonesty in this.

P.S. I approve this message as appropriate for reading by anyone I know.


[Edited by: RichWLIN at 6/25/2014 5:04:21 AM EST]
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CampKohler
Champion Author Sacramento

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Message Posted: Jun 25, 2014 2:07:29 AM

BD & Tx: [Deleted by GasBuddy] I have ever seen.

[Edited by: CampKohler at 6/25/2014 2:07:52 AM EST]
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Byte_Doctor
Champion Author Akron

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Message Posted: Jun 24, 2014 10:44:18 PM

"And to date, RichWLIN has shown no remorse for his actions"

Actually, yes, he has - I've seen more than once where he has said what he did was wrong and he shouldn't have done it.
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scoutmaster
Champion Author Pittsburgh

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Message Posted: Jun 24, 2014 9:56:31 PM

Yeah posting personal information is way over the line and RichWLIN should have been banned for doing that. The last member who did that was banned. And to date, RichWLIN has shown no remorse for his actions and yet the moderators do nothing.
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TxJeans
Champion Author Tampa

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Message Posted: Jun 24, 2014 6:24:09 PM

Rich,

<<"Sadly, there are some members here who have no such scruples, and whose sole purpose seems to be one of egotistical self promotion and disingenous, argument baiting remarks that I'm quite certain their mother, boss or pastor would find offensive.">>>

You know what they say about folks living in glass houses not throwing rocks?

Like when you posted someone's personal information?

Sorry, I couldn't resist.

I suspect that all of us, even when reading our posts before hitting submit (having a nice preview window I think helps foster a more careful review before submitting, but alas these forums are outdated software), post things that could be worded a bit better, or nicer, or maybe not posted at all.

I know that when I put someone on ignore recently, it would have been better if I had self edited and just let the member know I was putting him on ignore through PM.

There are very few posters here that have not said something in some post or another that was maybe not worded quite as carefully, or a post was not read carefully and the response was based more on preconceived notions than what was actually said.

There is at least one member that stumbles over every post made trying to "not offend" that it comes out almost laughable or offensive. It can be a tough crowd here, and heaven forbid if you agree with an opinion made by someone that one of the cliques here dislikes.

I suggest we all step back and try to be more civil to each other...self included.

JMO
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RichWLIN
Champion Author Indiana

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Message Posted: Jun 24, 2014 1:04:54 PM

We're off on a bit of a tangent here, but the way this discussion has diverged and ultimately wound up, it seems appropriate to reflect a moment on anonymous online behavior.

I tend to read my own comments and arguments carefully before I post them, asking myself if I would care that anyone I know personally would find fault therein. For instance, would my family, friends, employer or co-workers consider my stance or opinions in written contributions to a conversation in any way artificial, disingenuous of deceitful?

For me the answer has to be no. I'd like to think that I could share these same thoughts with anyone or come back here and read my remarks ten years from now without embarrassment. If not, then what is the purpose of spending the time and effort to contribute here?

I tend to gravitate toward apparently like-minded others who consistently appear to say what they mean, and mean what they say without falsification, embellishment or rationalization. We can all enjoy converations, even heated debate and arguments, with other cloaked members as long as there is a consistency of honesty.

Sadly, there are some members here who have no such scruples, and whose sole purpose seems to be one of egotistical self promotion and disingenous, argument baiting remarks that I'm quite certain their mother, boss or pastor would find offensive.

RG
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scoutmaster
Champion Author Pittsburgh

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Message Posted: Jun 24, 2014 11:33:48 AM

Yes it is Zim!

Define "banking related".

Well, Byte_Doctor, your assumptions are incorrect.

Actually, don't define anything any farther. Your definitions are skewed based on who you are answering and you limited knowledge of what I do.

I'm done!
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Scrapheap
Champion Author Virginia

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Message Posted: Jun 24, 2014 11:32:14 AM

Byte_Doctor wrote > I can see by your equivocations and attempts at turning the conversation in a different direction that you have run out of substantive arguments.

He had a substantive argument??
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Byte_Doctor
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Message Posted: Jun 24, 2014 9:25:31 AM

"Those are careers within a bank. And there are many, many more like these."

As I said, "careers within a bank" that are not directly banking related are no more "careers in banking" than a janitor at NASA has a career in Aerospace.

"But we can go with your definitions to make you happy, Byte_Doctor."

Again with the argumentum ad hominem. Considering you brought that sub-thread out of a conversation with another member into ours, this is starting to look like another of your setups.

"How recently - within the last 6 months."

So, within the last 6 months you have "deal[t] with [credit card companies] all the time", but not at the merchant/processor level. That sounds to me like working with consumer credit or at most business credit. Nah, I'm thinking consumer credit. Am I right? Let me guess, credit counseling under the guise of something important sounding, like "wealth management". Don't bother answering, I might not have hit it exactly but I know I'm close.

"I have never worked at the merchant/processor level."

Further confirmation that you are making things up as you go along. I can see this is a waste of my time. You have no clue how that fee structure works in the slightest, beyond what others have posted in this thread. And you have exposed your lack of understanding of basic business principles as well.

"What's next? Are we going to discuss my favorite color?"

Considering you first questioned my background and how it related to the topic, I felt it only fair to do the same.

I can see by your equivocations and attempts at turning the conversation in a different direction that you have run out of substantive arguments. I'm done here. (Although I would still enjoy seeing the source of Gas_Buddy's information so I can better understand how it fits in with my sources' data.)
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Zimcity
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Jun 24, 2014 9:25:12 AM

"Are we going to discuss my favorite color?"

I'll guess it's black and gold.
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RichWLIN
Champion Author Indiana

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Message Posted: Jun 24, 2014 9:01:22 AM

Thanks again Byte_Doctor for shedding a good bit of light on the various fees merchants pay as a function of accepting credit cards. From my own experience I can say that this is a bit more involved these days than it once was.

There is probably no need to argue this subject further with the scoutmaster. It has been adequately demonstrated, once again, that he just wants folks here to believe that he has knowledge of yet another subject in which his personal experience and understanding are at best fleeting.

If the discussion continues along these lines, he will most certainly nit-pick every sentence and word, rationalize and equivocate each of his misspoken meanings, all in a prolonged effort to bait others into heated exchanges. This is who he is here online.

RG

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scoutmaster
Champion Author Pittsburgh

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Message Posted: Jun 24, 2014 8:49:40 AM

Those are careers within a bank. And there are many, many more like these. But we can go with your definitions to make you happy, Byte_Doctor.

How recently - within the last 6 months. I have never worked at the merchant/processor level.

What's next? Are we going to discuss my favorite color?
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Byte_Doctor
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Message Posted: Jun 24, 2014 8:21:18 AM

"Every bank has an HR department which would not require what you state. There are also many facility careers within a bank that would not require what you state."

Those are not careers in banking. Those are jobs/careers in HR, IT, facilities management, etc. That would be like someone claiming to have a "career in Aerospace" because they have worked as a janitor at NASA for 25 years.

So, back to my questions: How recently have your official duties had you "deal with [credit card companies] all the time"? Have you *ever* worked directly at the merchant/processor level to have any idea of how it works from that perspective?
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scoutmaster
Champion Author Pittsburgh

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Message Posted: Jun 24, 2014 8:00:02 AM

Dang!

I meant to say

"One can work in banking for 50 years and never touch anything to do with money or anything greater than basic math."

Sorry

Yep you did say that. Sorry I posted it incorrectly.

"There is a difference between having a career in banking and working in banking. If you have been working in banking for 25 years and have not acquired "an intimate understanding of the way money works, math beyond the basics, a clear foundation in the world of business, and an adherence to a high ethical standard" then I submit you have a job, and not a career."

Every bank has an HR department which would not require what you state. There are also many facility careers within a bank that would not require what you state.

[Edited by: scoutmaster at 6/24/2014 8:03:04 AM EST]
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Byte_Doctor
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Message Posted: Jun 24, 2014 7:59:40 AM

"Nope it's entirely yours Byte_Doctor. You posted it. I never mentioned it until your did."

No, I said "cents-per-swipe", which is different than the term you used, "per-cents swipe". If you wish to be understood, use clear language.

"I'm currently in banking. Yes I have an understanding of how POS and credit/debit cards function."

Yet it is clear that you have fundamental misunderstandings of the way the merchant/processor relationship and fee structures work.

You also did not answer my questions: How recently have your official duties had you "deal with [credit card companies] all the time"? Have you *ever* worked directly at the merchant/processor level to have any idea of how it works from that perspective?

"One can work in banking for 50 years and never touch anything to do with money or basic math. "

There is a difference between having a career in banking and working in banking. If you have been working in banking for 25 years and have not acquired "an intimate understanding of the way money works, math beyond the basics, a clear foundation in the world of business, and an adherence to a high ethical standard" then I submit you have a job, and not a career.
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scoutmaster
Champion Author Pittsburgh

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Message Posted: Jun 24, 2014 7:51:36 AM

Nope it's entirely yours Byte_Doctor. You posted it. I never mentioned it until your did.

"Which isn't entirely the case (since the fees charged are partially a cents-per-swipe and partially a percentage of the total amount), so your statement isn't accurate, even discounting the anti-shenanigans features of a modern point of sale system."

I'm currently in banking. Yes I have an understanding of how POS and credit/debit cards function. And I noticed you made the assumption

"A career of over 25 years in banking would by necessity bring along with it an intimate understanding of the way money works, math beyond the basics, a clear foundation in the world of business, and an adherence to a high ethical standard."

One can work in banking for 50 years and never touch anything to do with money or basic math.
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Byte_Doctor
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Message Posted: Jun 24, 2014 7:44:42 AM

"The "per-cents swipe charge" is yours."

Sorry, no, the term "per-cents swipe" is not mine. Other than me asking about it, you are the only one I've seen use it.

"When were you were involved in providing point of sale systems?"

I was directly involved in the point of sale systems division as recently as 4th quarter of last year. I still work for the same company but am currently working on a project in a different division, and will be back working directly with the point of sale division when it is again time for PA-DSS certification. In the mean time, I'm still regularly consulted by that team.

How recently have you been "in banking" and how recently have your official duties had you "deal with [credit card companies] all the time"? Have you *ever* worked directly at the merchant/processor level to have any idea of how it works from that perspective?

"You will never meet the impossible to meet criteria."

I asked Gas_Buddy his source since I'm interested both because I work in the industry and because those numbers, on the surface at least, don't agree with those published by an internationally recognized industry trade organization, NACS. It could be a problem of interpretation, or one of a very specific region or even individual retailer. But until the source is known, nobody can make that determination.

There is no impossible to meet criteria unless you are making things up as you go along. I have cited my source, you have yet to cite any at all. I have laid out in specific detail how the fee structure breaks down for fuel retailer credit card clearing. All you have done is "if this" and "if that" with respect to card clearing fees and provided nothing but speculation based on how you think it might be. I have provided specific examples of how your speculative musings are inaccurate. You have demonstrated a complete lack of understanding of basic math and business. My criteria are knowledge supported by facts. Your criteria are, well, apparently something else entirely.

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scoutmaster
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Message Posted: Jun 23, 2014 10:12:15 PM

Byte_Doctor,

The "per-cents swipe charge" is yours.

When were you were involved in providing point of sale systems?

Don't try Gas_Buddy. You will never meet the impossible to meet criteria.
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Byte_Doctor
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Message Posted: Jun 23, 2014 8:48:16 PM

Gas_Buddy, I'd love to see the source for that information, on the surface it seems to be quite different than the data provided by NACS.
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Byte_Doctor
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Message Posted: Jun 23, 2014 8:45:44 PM

"So if you do fill your tank $5 at a time and it takes $50 to fill your tank that is 10 per-cents swipe charges instead of one if you fill your tank with one swipe."

Once again, I'm having trouble parsing your post. What is a "per-cents swipe charge"? Surely we aren't back to a swipe charge based on a percentage of the sale amount somehow allowing multiple sales to cut into the profit for the entire aggregate sale?

"I forgot! You have been to every station in the USA!"

Ah yes, you do like argumentum ad hominem don't you? No, I haven't visited every station in the USA, but I have dealt with thousands of them during the time I was involved in providing point of sale systems to that industry, ranging across every region of the US, including large chains, major brands, and independents. *None* of them had that kind of scale, and not once during the negotiations I was a part of was such a scale ever mentioned by any party to the negotiations. Yes, your average sale amount factors into the fee structure, but once the scale is set it doesn't change on a per-transaction basis. That would be madness.
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scoutmaster
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Message Posted: Jun 23, 2014 5:31:35 PM

"Which isn't entirely the case (since the fees charged are partially a cents-per-swipe and partially a percentage of the total amount), so your statement isn't accurate, even discounting the anti-shenanigans features of a modern point of sale system."

So if you do fill your tank $5 at a time and it takes $50 to fill your tank that is 10 per-cents swipe charges instead of one if you fill your tank with one swipe.

"Which isn't the case at any station I've ever encountered, so again, your statement isn't accurate."

I forgot! You have been to every station in the USA!

"Gas stations that no longer accept credit cards? Seems pretty unlikely, and would be like slitting your own throat in today's credit-based economy."

Rare but it does happen. They will accept debit cards but not credit cards.
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Gas_Buddy
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Message Posted: Jun 23, 2014 4:48:40 PM

Just to clarify some things, there are essentially three basic fees that a gas station (or other business) pays for the ability/privilege to process credit and/or debit card fees.

In some cases they're called the Retail Discount Rate, the Retail Transaction Fee, and the Monthly Account Fee. In other cases they're collectively called the interchange fee. And in other cases they're called the "swipe fee", the transaction charge, and (for lack of a better word) the "machine fee" (it's similar to renting the ATM and the ATM process between the gas station and the financial institution; consider it to be "you either own or rent your computer but you can't get on-line without an internet connect connection and without that connection you can't have your e-mail received at the other by the recipient, in this case the recipient being the financial institution).

As explained by one gas station owner/operator, Credit/debit card fees are generally the second highest expense a gas station has after labor/salaries, followed by rent and paying off the investment loan. Assuming that gas wholesales for $3.50 a gallon, it costs $28,000.00 dollars to fill a 8,000 gallon tank. (And yes, it's likely that an 8,000 gallon underground tank isn't completely empty.) The average mark-up per gallon, above wholesale, has remained fairly consistent for the past several decades, generally between 9 and 12 cents per gallon. And yes, that means that some stations have a lower mark-up and some have a noticeably higher mark-up, as much as 14 or 16 cents per gallon.

The average gas station - using California as an example (http://www.energyalmanac.ca.gov/transportation/summary.html) sells about 4,400 gallons per day, or about 130,000 gallons per month. Saying the obvious, some stations sell as little as 45,000 to 50,000 per month (and some less than that) to as much as 250,000 gallons per month (and in some cases more). Back to the gas station operator, who, for competitive reasons, has a mark-up of .08 cents per gallon, an 8,000 gallon tank purchase equals $640.00 gross profit on $28,000.00 dollar investment. That is about 2.25 percent gross profit margin from which you pay a cashier, power to run pumps, upkeep on pumps and dispensers (forgetting generators when lightning strikes and or there are breakdowns); local taxes and accountant fees, franchise fees (he's now unbranded and doesn't pay franchise fees but as a result, prices being equal, he gets fewer customers than local (competing) branded stations get. breakdowns. Then the credit card companies take 2 to 3 % of the $ 3.58 per gallon of gas. $3.58 x 10 gallons = $35.80 = .80 cents gross profit to store for a cash sale. Credit sale of $35.80 – 2% fee of 71.4 cents plus .19 cents charge per transaction fee = .90.4 cents total credit card fees which gives the store owner a .10.4 cents loss on the sale to give you the privilege to use your credit card.

The above isn't to take sides or to offer a personal opinion, but rather to provide perspective to the on-going discussion.

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Byte_Doctor
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Message Posted: Jun 23, 2014 4:25:55 PM

"If the swipe is a fixed amount it my statement would be accurate."

Which isn't entirely the case (since the fees charged are partially a cents-per-swipe and partially a percentage of the total amount), so your statement isn't accurate, even discounting the anti-shenanigans features of a modern point of sale system.

"It would also be accurate if the swipe fee was a % but based upon the amount, i.e. the smaller the transaction, the higher the fee."

Which isn't the case at any station I've ever encountered, so again, your statement isn't accurate.

"I know of many place who no longer accept credit cards because of the swipe fee. "

Gas stations that no longer accept credit cards? Seems pretty unlikely, and would be like slitting your own throat in today's credit-based economy.
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scoutmaster
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Message Posted: Jun 23, 2014 2:49:44 PM

If the swipe is a fixed amount it my statement would be accurate. It would also be accurate if the swipe fee was a % but based upon the amount, i.e. the smaller the transaction, the higher the fee. I know of many place who no longer accept credit cards because of the swipe fee.
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Byte_Doctor
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Message Posted: Jun 23, 2014 2:46:05 PM

"My bad. Missed the % sign. Sorry."

Which would then make your statement:
"If the swipe fee is a % of the total transaction you are correct. If the swipe fee is a fixed amount per swipe, you are incorrect."

So, since it was you claiming the swipe fee was a percentage but would still reduce the profit margin if the sale was split into multiple transactions, if you are now agreeing with me that you have been wrong since your post on Jun 23, 2014 7:56:36 AM and would now like to retract your claim, then I'm glad you've finally seen the light.

If so, then perhaps you would also like to admit you were similarly incorrect and your method to split a gas transaction into several smaller transactions and thereby "almost reducing their profit on the entire sale to almost nothing" would not work even though the fee is partially a fixed cents per swipe...
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scoutmaster
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Message Posted: Jun 23, 2014 1:07:09 PM

My bad. Missed the % sign. Sorry.

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Byte_Doctor
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Message Posted: Jun 23, 2014 12:19:43 PM

"If the swipe fee is a $ of the total transaction you are correct. If the swipe fee is a fixed amount per swipe, you are incorrect."

I'm having a difficult time understanding what you just posted as it is written. If by "If the swipe fee is a $ of the total transaction" you meant to say "If the swipe fee is a % of the total transaction" then that is what you have been saying since your post on Jun 23, 2014 7:56:36 AM, and is what I've been telling you is incorrect since then. If you would now like to recant what you said on Jun 23, 2014 7:56:36 AM and subsequently, and agree with me, then I'm glad you've finally seen the light.

Regardless, you are still fundamentally incorrect about your method to split a gas transaction into several smaller transactions and thereby "almost reducing their profit on the entire sale to almost nothing."
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scoutmaster
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Message Posted: Jun 23, 2014 11:52:15 AM

If the swipe fee is a $ of the total transaction you are correct. If the swipe fee is a fixed amount per swipe, you are incorrect.
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Byte_Doctor
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Message Posted: Jun 23, 2014 10:04:25 AM

"It is scary to think of the scoutmaster functioning as an employee in a banking environment with his inconsistent equivocatons and fuzzy math.

Perhaps even more alarming is the admission of ill-conceived attempts to cause multiple credit card fees at a gas pump. Is this a peek into the mind of a banking professional? Sure hope not."

Indeed, Rich. I was ready to ask the former scoutmaster what bank he works for so I could avoid it like the plague. But then something dawned on me. A career of over 25 years in banking would by necessity bring along with it an intimate understanding of the way money works, math beyond the basics, a clear foundation in the world of business, and an adherence to a high ethical standard. And yet we've seen absolutely no indication of any degree of competence in anything banking related in the former scoutmaster's entire posting history. Quite to the contrary, we see repeated examples of the very opposite. We've also seen his claims of working in other areas like website building, etc. (with a similar lack of examples of competence, I might add). So I have serious doubts that the former scoutmaster works or has worked in anything banking related, outside of perhaps janitorial or other similarly unrelated services.

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