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Author Topic: Fuel log correction feature Back to Topics
Ecossais

Rookie Author
Ontario

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Message Posted: Jun 27, 2013 3:45:18 PM

You know what would be useful: the ability to correct for consistent offsets in fuel log data. I happen to know that my 2006 Honda Civic overrates the odometer by 5%. Since I record the displayed odometer readings in the logs, instead of the actual, this inches the reported efficiency of 5.596L/100km up to 5.876L/100km.

A heads up that you can't believe everything you read when it comes to these things would probably go a long way, too.
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kwzh
Champion Author San Jose

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Message Posted: Jun 30, 2013 11:47:49 PM

It sounds like we're pretty much in agreement on this one. ("Not worth doing".)
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TxJeans
Champion Author Tampa

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Message Posted: Jun 30, 2013 6:03:17 PM

@ Gas_Buddy
"As for the original suggestion, I don't see a value in having what would amount to a standard "odoemter reading adjustment". To me, and I'm apparently in the minority, if the member thinks that the vehicle went further than the odometer indicated or went less distance than the odemeter indicated, by five percent, simply make the adjustment yourself (i.e., member-self)."

I think he wanted a field to enter an adjustment, not a standard adjustment provided by GB, but I could be wrong.

Regardless, I don't see the value under the 80/20 approach as I feel it would not offer value to the majority of the users and there are many other requests pending with broader appeal.

Of course, my stating that might be seen as being "skeert" of change, or calling it "stinkaroo" or being mean and uber-critical of the suggestor rather than expressing my opinion on a suggestion.
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Gas_Buddy
Champion Author Maryland

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Message Posted: Jun 29, 2013 5:54:56 PM

kwzh
Champion Author San Jose
kwzh (and others):
- a
That Honda made an across-the-board warranty extension doesn't necessarily mean that there is an exact 5 percent odometer discrepancy in each and every odometer. Honda's notification to all brand/model owners, extending the warranty by a fixed amount, is no different than a standard recall even though not all the recalled vehicles are or will be subject to the "problem". Providing a fixed warranty extension - a round figure, if you will - is much simpler than testing each and every individual vehicle and making separate and distinct adjustment for each and every vehicle. But that's preaching the obvious, and preaching to the choir.

As for the original suggestion, I don't see a value in having what would amount to a standard "odoemter reading adjustment". To me, and I'm apparently in the minority, if the member thinks that the vehicle went further than the odometer indicated or went less distance than the odemeter indicated, by five percent, simply make the adjustment yourself (i.e., member-self). If the calculation is too difficulty - and I'm not being snide or cynical - make a mental 10 percent adjustment and cut that adjustment in half. I don't see why Gas Buddy's fuel logbook needs to have computer generated adjustments. Especially considering that the 5 percent "offset" seems to be an arbitrary figure. and if the offset is an arbitrary figure, so would be a Gas Buddy adjustment.

But that's just my opinion, and it's up to Gas Buddy LLC to implement the suggestion. I'm just offering my point of view.

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TxJeans
Champion Author Tampa

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Message Posted: Jun 29, 2013 9:14:24 AM

Scrapheap: "whether or not there is a consensus and how frequently a topic is brought up. How important any individual believes a suggestion to be isn't all that relevant, though some people have tried to use it to stifle a thread. "
.
How important any individual believes a suggestion is may not be important as a single data point, but the aggregate of many opinions is relevant.
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I see folks trying to stifle comments from both sides.
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Scrapheap
Champion Author Virginia

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Message Posted: Jun 29, 2013 9:06:34 AM

TXJeans wrote > I have not called the idea "stinkaroo" and I do think we should be discussing how important they are or aren't in relation to all the things we have been waiting for in enhancements. It is in our discussing these ideas with what we see as pro or con that Gas Buddy PTB can use to determine along with their own views how to prioritize the many requests.

I think the moderators can determine how important a suggestion is based on the quantity of discussion, whether or not there is a consensus and how frequently a topic is brought up. How important any individual believes a suggestion to be isn't all that relevant, though some people have tried to use it to stifle a thread.

Ultimately TPTB will go off and do what they want, regardless of what we say. I don't recall App awards or Top Spotter ever being suggested or discussed in this forum.

By all means, go ahead and discuss the pros and cons of the suggestion.
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kwzh
Champion Author San Jose

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Message Posted: Jun 29, 2013 12:38:29 AM

Gas_Buddy: This is a pretty minor sub-sub-issue, but it sounds like you're saying that the three readings were (14.0, 14.9, 14.0). This seems at odds with the over-mileage vehicles being referred to in the plural, and the under-mileage in the singular, in your original report.

scoutmaster: Ecossais presented two forms of evidence in favor of the odometer being at fault: the unlikelihood of *all* those mileage markers being so *consistently* wrong, and the letter from the Honda executive acknowledging the faulty odometers.
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TxJeans
Champion Author Tampa

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Message Posted: Jun 28, 2013 8:45:47 PM

Ecossais - Thank you for coming back with more information.

CK:"Again I wish to reiterate that I do not believe we should be judging ideas on how important they are or aren't in relation to other ideas (priority ranking), but rather how well they appear to solve a problem, real or perceived. Otherwise all we need to advance arguments along that line is to find one stellar idea everyone can agree is the most important idea of all and then beat every other suggester over the head with it at every opportunity, a kind of universal shillelagh (pronounced shill-eh-log except in Ireland, where it's different for some reason). "

I have not called the idea "stinkaroo" and I do think we should be discussing how important they are or aren't in relation to all the things we have been waiting for in enhancements. It is in our discussing these ideas with what we see as pro or con that Gas Buddy PTB can use to determine along with their own views how to prioritize the many requests. It is also in discussing them that we together have worked out other solutions, better approaches and have even changed mind about importance through the discussion.

If we just post ideas and don't discuss them, then we might as well just have an email address to send the request to the GB PTB.

Now CK has said he doesn't judge when putting items on his "LIST" (which we don't know if anyone even bothers to look at, let alone GB PTB) and is unofficial and not GB PTB sponsored. However, lately there is an idea (haven't checked this evening) that CK repetitively skipped over and has not posted to his non-judgmental list.

In regards to this idea, I still say that when considered in the view of the general membership this would fall easily in the 80/20 (maybe 95/5) rule. I bet most people just accept what their odometer states. This is something that (especially for the op with a 5% variance) the few folks that might want to calculate could do so.
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Gas_Buddy
Champion Author Maryland

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Message Posted: Jun 28, 2013 7:13:03 PM

kwzh:

The missing "tenth" is a zero. 14.0

I'm not suggesting the idea is "stinkaroo" or anything. It's just that, even if all Honda Civic odometers were slightly off (let alone knowing how an exact percentage was determined, and meaning that odometers for all other vehicles are also likely off, however more or less), that doesn't mean that they're all identically off, that each is exactly 5 percent (or any other percentage). I'm not judging the importance of the suggestion, it's just hard to imagine how Gas Buddy can enable such a variable for every fuel logbook entry (and that doesn't take into consideration that a fuel logbook may have multiple vehicles with multiple variances).

Even if there's a "model wide problem", and that's assuming that all odometers are made by the one company with the same built-in "error", I'm not sure how Gas Buddy can build in a tire variance into the equation. I don't remember if/how changing tires can affect an odometer reading but I know that changing tire size can affect your speed readings.

(For those unfamiliar with the relation between tire size and fuel economy, your speedometer reads how many revolutions your tires are making, not how fast they are spinning. When you go to bigger tires the circumference of the tires is larger, meaning the distance around the tire is longer. Thus, with each revolution you are traveling further than before. Therefore your actual speed is higher than your speedometer reads. Or lower if you have gone with a smaller tire then stock.)

I just think that the suggestion needs to be fleshed out a little.
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scoutmaster
Champion Author Pittsburgh

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Message Posted: Jun 28, 2013 10:53:02 AM

The assumption is the mile markers are correct and the odometer is incorrect. The opposite could also be true.

Wouldn't it be easier if Ecossais were to make the adjustments, provided they are needed, before entering the information into the fuel log?
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CampKohler
Champion Author Sacramento

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Message Posted: Jun 28, 2013 10:32:59 AM

Well, even if some considers this idea as a genuine stinkaroo, we certainly have to give Eco points (the brownie kind, not the prize drawing kind) for a timely and thorough response to questions put forth.

Again I wish to reiterate that I do not believe we should be judging ideas on how important they are or aren't in relation to other ideas (priority ranking), but rather how well they appear to solve a problem, real or perceived. Otherwise all we need to advance arguments along that line is to find one stellar idea everyone can agree is the most important idea of all and then beat every other suggester over the head with it at every opportunity, a kind of universal shillelagh (pronounced shill-eh-log except in Ireland, where it's different for some reason).
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Ecossais
Rookie Author Ontario

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Message Posted: Jun 28, 2013 9:37:46 AM

Ok, I guess I need to back some of that up.

I tested the odometer against highway markers and consistently found them to be wrong, until I realized that government incompetence is not that consistent, and that it's my odometer that's wrong. But what's that worth? I could have been drunk while behind the wheel, right? Well, the Honda executive who decided that we be sent all those letters informing us that the mileage on our warranties have been extended by 5% for that reason would have to have been making merry as well.

CK explains it well: the fuel log would know that my odometer is off the same way it knows how much fuel I put in my car: I tell it. However, since this is a model-wide problem, with enough will, the system could have a database of these inaccuracies.

This isn't the first automotive instrument to be inaccurate. My '93 Civic's speedometer overrated by 10% and I've heard other cars from that era did, too. I don't think you'll see that anymore, in this era of GPSes, though.
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kwzh
Champion Author San Jose

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Message Posted: Jun 28, 2013 2:36:21 AM

Gas_Buddy: I'm unsure how someone would "know" that the commute distance is exactly 14.1 in the first place, but I'd agree that testing it with his three different cars seems like a sound experiment -- IF it turns out to be reproducible. If he only tested it once with each car, that sounds suspicious to me. He should probably also get someone who doesn't have a stake in the outcome to do the driving. (Btw, your second figure "14." seems to be missing the tenths digit.)

Ecossais: I'm likewise curious about what standard you're comparing to, and whether you've gotten consistent results from experiments. Good point about bringing the general problem to people's attention. But I agree with TxJeans that it's probably too esoteric an issue to bother fixing in the GasBuddy code base.

(Btw, I've never used the GasBuddy fuel log; I figured that I could write a one-line script that did what *I* wanted, and I did so.)
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TxJeans
Champion Author Tampa

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Message Posted: Jun 27, 2013 9:54:03 PM

I suggest that most folks don't know if or their odometers are accurate.
I suggest this falls in the 80/20. Not worth programming when there is a list of other more global wants for the site. The OP has a workaround of adjusting his miles before entry to the fuel log.
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CampKohler
Champion Author Sacramento

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Message Posted: Jun 27, 2013 9:17:56 PM

This suggestion has been added to the Suggestion Tracking List as a new subject.

GB: He is not asking for the system to know how far off his odometer is; he is asking for the ability to enter the offset as a permanent per-vehicle setting so that system will always know how far it is off.

If you have ever taken apart the instrument panel of a modern vehicle, you would not suggest it to someone either as hobby work or for hiring someone to do it.* And then there is no guarantee a different one will perform better. I'm for a software tweak.

----
*I and my bro-in-law—a 30-year mechanic—just replaced the fuel filter in my '97 Saturn and it took us both over an hour and a half, jacking up and a wheel removal to do it; it was just barely possible with the way human arms normally bend. No wonder it was never changed in 45K miles instead of the recommended 12! It would have cost $150 to pay someone to do what used to be a ten-minute job. And I am sure the design engineers have gotten "better" in the last 26 years, so the more one can avoid working on cars, the better.
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Gas_Buddy
Champion Author Maryland

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Message Posted: Jun 27, 2013 5:14:53 PM



Not asking how you "happen to know" that Honda overrates the odometer by 5 percent, are you saying that your odometer is showing (for example) that you drove 100,000 kilometers since you bought your car when in reality you know you that you only actually only drove 95,000 kilometers since you bought your car. Nor am I asking why, if you know your odometer is "off", why not replace it with a more accurate one.

How is Gas Buddy (or the Fuel Logbook) supposed to know that your car's odometer is off (i.e., over or underrates mileage) but that another person's odometer is accurate or differs more or less than your 5 percent?

Background:

Without knowing Ecossais' reasons for knowing his Honda Civic's odometer is overrated, there was a "case", actually a call-in to on one of the radio call-in shows (It may have been "Car Doctor") in which the caller said he had there cars (a Toyota RAV-4, a BMW 3-Series sedan, and a Chrysler Crossfire. The caller stated that the commute to his work is "exactly 14.1 miles". He drove the three cars fromhome to work and the RAV-4's odometer indicated he drove 14.0 miles, the 3-Series odometer indicated he drover 14.9 miles, and the Crossfire's odometer indicated he drove 14. miles. The caller, if I remember correctly, went to court claiming that the "incorrect odometers" would reflect inaccurate mileage and, thus, may diminish the value of his cars if/when he went to sell them, his logic being that higher mileage reduces the value of the vehicle; (he didn't have a comment about the mileage shown for the odometer that read less mileage than he claimed it was from home-to-work).

TWhile it would mean, of course, mean that your fuel logbook reading and your odometer reading would differ at each and every fill-up, are you suggesting that the Fuel Logbook have a feature for which you (and every other fuel logbook user) can arbitrarily add or subtract a percentage of the miles driven (rather than deduct the difference in your head and make the necessary odometer reading post) in your head)?

Maybe I just don't understand what the suggestion is asking.
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