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Author Topic: Aid for campaigns for updating specific MSL station record data. Back to Topics
CampKohler

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Sacramento

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Message Posted: Jun 4, 2013 4:27:26 PM

Certain station data changes (such as the new MO & CC boxes discussed here) may warrant a concerted campaign by locals to update all station records. This could be aided by one of two methods:

Method 1: A temporary indicator in the Station List view of each MSL record WITHOUT EDITING and tells if the record has been updated (the indicator would go positive—show a check mark&mdashfor a station if any of the updated material is checked or the indicator itself was checked.

Method 2: A temporary list showing all a site's stations would exist for the duration of the campaign (six months?) Users entitled to edit the MSL would be entitled to add a check mark for any station on which they have updated the new data.

Method 3: Do both 1) and 2) and synch them.

Examples of 1) and 2) may be seen here.

In either case, members will be able to easily see which stations are done and which need to be completed. Future campaigns could be cookie-cuttered by changing a few words.
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scoutmaster
Champion Author Pittsburgh

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Message Posted: Jun 24, 2013 8:05:32 AM

My take on all this is temporary list and checkboxes are pointless and will only confuse the majority of members and is really not worth the effort.

As far as the accuracy of the data, this is a garbage in garbage out site. Like someone posted there are people on each site who take pride in their site and their portion of the MSL and maintain it well. There are others who don't give a hoot and post anything for points. I still feel the biggest improvement on this site will be when they tie the MSL grades checked to what can be posted for each station. This will eliminate posting grades a station doesn't carry.

Humor?? CampKohler's attempts are poor and inappropriate. As far as kwzh's Lincoln joke, it just wasn't very funny.
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kwzh
Champion Author San Jose

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Message Posted: Jun 24, 2013 12:25:24 AM

Btw, I don't have a problem with CK's sense of humor. In a different topic, I posted a joke about Lincoln; I wondered if anyone would complain that it was inappropriate because it made light of a tragedy. (Nobody did, but the topic got locked before I could explain the relevance.)
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TxJeans
Champion Author Tampa

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Message Posted: Jun 23, 2013 4:18:24 PM

CampKohler - " How will it be known down the road whether or not the data is accurate? Will someone audit the results, or will we just hope for the best? And if there is an audit, how will we know if a station has been evaluated for the Different Cash & Credit Pricing if that station doesn't have a difference?"

This is the first phase. How do we know what other data is accurate and how often it has been checked? For the most part, it appears that keeping the MSL is primarily up to the users with more than 10,000 points, and I see this being the same. There are plenty of members on each of the sites that seem interested in keeping the MSL up to date. With more members than ever, it should be easier than ever. Will it ever be perfect? I doubt it.

"Perhaps waiting to use the data is the very essence of the problem. It is hidden and so nobody sees it as urgent. Oh, well, I suppose it will all come home to roost when the output of the boxes shows up where everyone can see them; then people start asking why this station or that station's box doesn't match up with reality and will get to work on it."

Yes, as this data is factored into future plans by GB, it will either die as non-issue or will be updated by those that use the site.

I put a message in my local forum about the change before I saw your suggestion to do so, and there were no responses. I suspect the response level will vary from site to site depending on how many are affected by these types of indicators. If I travel outside my home site and come across a station that I stopped at and then found was dual priced, I will update the MSL. But, until it is usefully displayed to prevent me getting off the road and being stuck with the unexpected price differential, it will be low priority.

Currently, I don't know which stations are dual priced w/out driving by to check to be sure --- I DO know which ones have a likelihood of >75% and don't visit or post prices for those. If I happen to have a chance to check one out, I will annotate it. I have annotated those that I KNOW only.

Yes,it will be interesting in how it is finally fully implemented and what other changes come about that are currently being worked on by GB. The less they have to mess with temporary lists, the more programming hours to get the requirements fully defined, the solution planned, coded and tested so they can deliver it to the site.
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CampKohler
Champion Author Sacramento

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Message Posted: Jun 23, 2013 3:33:50 PM

re: Asking: How will it be known down the road whether or not the data is accurate? Will someone audit the results, or will we just hope for the best? And if there is an audit, how will we know if a station has been evaluated for the Different Cash & Credit Pricing if that station doesn't have a difference?

Perhaps waiting to use the data is the very essence of the problem. It is hidden and so nobody sees it as urgent. Oh, well, I suppose it will all come home to roost when the output of the boxes shows up where everyone can see them; then people start asking why this station or that station's box doesn't match up with reality and will get to work on it.

Meanwhile, in my site's area, I will maintain a list in order that all members can see which stations' two boxes have been completed and which need to be. It will be interesting to see how it all works out....
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TxJeans
Champion Author Tampa

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Message Posted: Jun 23, 2013 1:20:25 PM

Scrapheap "Since stations can easily go from being single priced to being dual priced, I don't see the list as being that useful."

Once the feature is fully implemented, I suspect that the list will be kept updated much the way anything on the MSL is updated (closed stations, new stations, etc.). When someone comes across a station that recently converted to or from dual pricing, the member can update the list much as other updates are done.

No need for a concerted campaign that requires additional "temporary" markers to assist in the campaign. All additional programming effort should be directed to completing the implementation of tying price fields to the MSL (grade and the credit/cash issue, etc.).
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Scrapheap
Champion Author Virginia

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Message Posted: Jun 23, 2013 12:46:33 PM

I too am not disagreeing with CK just because he is CK. I think he knows that.

I just fundamentally disagree that there needs to be much of a campaign, a list of stations that have or have not been checked or that it is necessary to walk into every station and ask the question.

Before any campaign occurs, I would want them to add a box for cash only stations.

I don't think any campaign has to go beyond posting a message in local message boards, and maybe a couple of other popular message boards, and asking people to update those stations they are aware of being dual priced, cash only or members only.

As I have stated, it has been readily apparent to me when a station is dual priced without needing to ask an attendant that question. If Sacramento is an anomaly, I am still unconvinced that I need to ask that question at every station in the areas I frequent.

Since stations can easily go from being single priced to being dual priced, I don't see the list as being that useful.

I think that over time, the MSL entries will be changed to reflect these station features but these matters really aren't so critical that there needs to be an organized campaign.
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TxJeans
Champion Author Tampa

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Message Posted: Jun 23, 2013 9:22:25 AM

kwzh "CK, I believe there *are* members who would gainsay you for no solid reason, but I don't think this is one of those cases. "

Agreed. I am not trying to gainsay CK for no reason, but disagree fully with his premise in this thread.

However, those that might gainsay CK, might be increasing with the increase of CK's poor choice of words and humor that is often tasteless (using the disasters/major tragedies as source of humor) as has been commented on before and his own "gainsay" of others.

[Edited by: TxJeans at 6/23/2013 9:23:22 AM EST]
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kwzh
Champion Author San Jose

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Message Posted: Jun 22, 2013 11:26:09 PM

CK, I believe there *are* members who would gainsay you for no solid reason, but I don't think this is one of those cases.
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Gas_Buddy
Champion Author Maryland

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Message Posted: Jun 22, 2013 8:07:57 PM

CampKohler

"You guys just want to be contrary at any cost. If I say up, you'll say down (or vice versa)."

You don't think that maybe other members simply don't agree there's a problem, that there's an issue, or that an idea simply might not be a good idea or something that's worthy or worth the Gas Buddy management/operation effort? Maybe I'm wrong but I just don't think that anything that anyone can come up with as a "problem" or as a "needs to be fixed" is necessarily worthy of implementing or fixing just because a member brings it up (and even if several others say "I agree").

For perspective, and I'll start by saying I agree with Scrapheaps's post that:
"I have come across dual priced stations in at least 7 different states and have yet to come across a case where I had to go in and ask if they had tiered pricing. Often you can tell without driving in, but the worst I have seen is having to drive up to the pumps and reading a sign. You may have to get out of your car to see if they have restrooms, ATMs, pay phones or to get their phone number but to see tiered pricing? I haven't come across that."

Having traveled through many more than 7 states over the past several year (for that matter for a number of years), from my experience virtually all gas stations that accept cash only have a clear "Cash Only indicator visible without the need to drive up to the pumps, and an overwhelming majority of gas stations that have different pricing for cash/credit payment have the "Cash" or "Cash Price" indicator visible without having to drive up to the pump to check the price. And, while the pump may indicate the cash price, switching over to the credit price when the credit or debit card is entered, there has been ; in some cases the credit price has been displayed at the pump and the pricing indicator changes to cash by the station attendant. In other cases the price is changed when the customer presses the "Pay Inside" button. I'm not saying that I haven't seen any gas stations post a price and you pull up to the pump to learn there's a difference credit/debit price, but they've been relatively few in number. If a station doesn't, in fact, have both the cash and credit/debit price listed on the outside overhead, there's a clear indicator that the price is either "the cash price" or the station is "cash only". Maybe I don't see what I believe is anomaly price posting.

Not trying to be contrary but I don't see the "temporary" indicator or "temporary" list being a practical or worthwhile idea. Maybe if there was a better explanation of it's value I might agree, but I don't see practicality or value based on discussion so far. But that's simply my opinion.

[Edited by: Gas_Buddy at 6/22/2013 8:17:31 PM EST]
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TxJeans
Champion Author Tampa

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Message Posted: Jun 22, 2013 12:07:19 PM

No CampKohlder, we are not being contrary just to be contrary...

And, you also have to compute time to walk into the store.

The few times I have been in CA, prices for both credit and cash were posted clearly at the curb and at the pump. I will admit never having been to Sacramento. I guess the standards in Sacramento are very customer NOT friendly.

Everywhere else I have traveled, the price is posted at least at the pump. And I have never seen a pump that charged more for credit that did not at least indicate a surcharge for doing so (usually with the price or price differential).

No, the "counter" guy may be at the counter, but to ask a question you usually have to wait behind those that are buying their coffee, candy, beer, lottos, or paying for their gas.

I avoid going into most of the stores. I have yet to be hit by a credit card charge at the pump where the credit card surcharge was not clearly noted before I entered my CC.

I still see no need for special lists by GB to update the list.

And personally, I am finding some of your comments inappropriate (the one Don referenced below, and poor analogies to disasters/tragedies).
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CampKohler
Champion Author Sacramento

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Message Posted: Jun 22, 2013 11:34:23 AM

The pumps might indicate the price after you have entered your card, but in many cases, there are no indications BEFORE you do that, at least in CA, and that takes more than 5 seconds. Asking the counter guy takes literally 5 seconds max, whether he is busy or not; he doesn't have to be "found," because in CA they are ALWAYS in the store. Do your counter people wander off somewhere? That would be a very lax operation (which doesn't happen here even at LAX).

You guys just want to be contrary at any cost. If I say up, you'll say down (or vice versa).

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TxJeans
Champion Author Tampa

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Message Posted: Jun 22, 2013 10:31:17 AM

Scrapheap "they have to make the credit price clear before you pump gas. "
Exactly.
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Scrapheap
Champion Author Virginia

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Message Posted: Jun 22, 2013 9:55:08 AM

I have come across dual priced stations in at least 7 different states and have yet to come across a case where I had to go in and ask if they had tiered pricing. Often you can tell without driving in, but the worst I have seen is having to drive up to the pumps and reading a sign.

You may have to get out of your car to see if they have restrooms, ATMs, pay phones or to get their phone number but to see tiered pricing? I haven't come across that. Usually the stations have the lower cash price on a large sign to act as a teaser and get you to stop but they have to make the credit price clear before you pump gas.
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scoutmaster
Champion Author Pittsburgh

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Message Posted: Jun 21, 2013 10:48:27 PM

Well, CampKohler, you seem to be good at compiling piles of flakey data som maybe you can answer your own question.

I see a choice - just drop it. A temporary indicator or list is pointless.
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TxJeans
Champion Author Tampa

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Message Posted: Jun 21, 2013 6:43:15 PM

CampKohlder

"Notices at the pump would be something one would have to look for carefully, which is more trouble than simply asking. I haven't seen such notices, and if a station doesn't post them, how is one to know there is a difference? If I can point out an example of a station (furnish pictures?) where credit is higher and there is no posted notice, would that satisfy you that you must ask or the data may be wrong? Shall we just assume that my local examples are one-in-a-million oddities and that ALL other areas of the country(s) behave according to your experience, so there is no need to ask? I don't see the logic there."

If a station can charge both a cash and credit price, the pumps in most cases are set up to handle the price difference and the prices are posted at the pump. I suspect that most states require some notice before you pump that they are going to charge you more for credit. I don't know for sure, but since you seem to have "caboodles" of time, why don't you research the price posting requirements for every state (and Canada if so inclined).

It is a LOT easier to look at the pump than get out and find a station employee free to answer such questions.

I don't see YOUR logic.



[Edited by: TxJeans at 6/21/2013 6:44:12 PM EST]
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CampKohler
Champion Author Sacramento

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Message Posted: Jun 21, 2013 6:03:40 PM

I thought my post of the 20th clearly explained the need to ask, but I guess it had no impact at all. I don't see any choice but to keep hammering away on the subject.

TX: .. "...I have yet to see a station charge more for credit card where their was not a notice at the pump...."
Notices at the pump would be something one would have to look for carefully, which is more trouble than simply asking. I haven't seen such notices, and if a station doesn't post them, how is one to know there is a difference? If I can point out an example of a station (furnish pictures?) where credit is higher and there is no posted notice, would that satisfy you that you must ask or the data may be wrong? Shall we just assume that my local examples are one-in-a-million oddities and that ALL other areas of the country(s) behave according to your experience, so there is no need to ask? I don't see the logic there.

SM: You are right about not asking about prices where the law mandates posting them where they can be seen in the street. But if the law has not required BOTH cash and credit prices be posted, how will it be known that there is no difference without asking?

If the data is going to be flakey, what is the point in gathering it?

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TxJeans
Champion Author Tampa

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Message Posted: Jun 21, 2013 6:54:39 AM

SM "I doubt if many people on this site get out of their car and ask anything at a gas station. I would bet over 90% of the prices are posted by those driving by and posting what is on the sign."

Yep - I agree, and if the prices are NOT on the curb sign and they ARE at the pump, I have yet to see a station charge more for credit card where their was not a notice at the pump (don't know about those states that still mandate attendants to pump, but for self-serve - I have never NOT seen notice at the pump of credit surcharge.

CKLTCPTSOCA
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scoutmaster
Champion Author Pittsburgh

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Message Posted: Jun 21, 2013 6:08:35 AM

Thanks CampKohler. Again, why do we need acronyms for everything? GBF, MGP, MFT, BOF, MIM, MPS, CDL, GPHM, TCC, GPC could all be used but unless someone tells you what they are you are only guessing.

I doubt if many people on this site get out of their car and ask anything at a gas station. I would bet over 90% of the prices are posted by those driving by and posting what is on the sign.
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CampKohler
Champion Author Sacramento

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Message Posted: Jun 20, 2013 3:13:54 PM

MGP = Map Gas Prices* It's in the sub-menu under Maps on the banner menu.

In CA, there is no law requiring a separate display of credit prices if they differ from cash. (There could be local ordinances requiring it, but not in my area.) Most stations with differing prices DO have a separate credit display, in which case the answer is apparent and there is no need to get out of the car and ask. However, if only one set of prices is displayed, which is the case in a great many stations (Chevron, 76, many Shell), the only way to tell if cash and credit are the same is to ask.

ARCO is almost uniform in that they take only cash/debit and there is no credit. The operative word is almost, because there is one ARCO that does take credit, therefore the only way to know for sure whether or not an ARCO takes credit cards is to get out and ask for every one—and there are a LOT of them. So, at least in my area, anyone NOT getting out of their car and asking has to assume** they are getting the right data.

As I have interpreted things, we are supposed to be collecting the data now and not waiting for the features to appear "out in the world." But even if one elected to wait until they did so, one would STILL not know if a station was completed by looking at the features at any station where the correct data is not having either box checked.***

----
*Saying "Map Gas Prices Map" is one mouthful.
**And you know that ASSUME makes an ASS out of U, but not ME, because I am getting out of my car and and asking.
***Which is just another case of the No/Unknown check box problem.

[Edited by: CampKohler at 6/20/2013 3:19:33 PM EST]
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scoutmaster
Champion Author Pittsburgh

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Message Posted: Jun 20, 2013 6:40:29 AM

What is the MGP map?

Where did Don say people are getting out of their cars at stations to ask information?

I'm sure after a period of time, the Members only and Cash/Credit check boxes will show up on the price boards.
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CampKohler
Champion Author Sacramento

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Message Posted: Jun 19, 2013 1:40:02 PM

There are some differences from your example, Don. 1.) Station appearance in the MSL can be seen from the MGP map, or deeper in the Stations List page after a search, but those pesky little boxes can't be seen without going to the Edit page of the station in question. 2.) You don't need to get out of your car and ask for information in order to add a station like you often do to determine if there is a price difference.

Imagine a member asking himself, which stations near me (or near the route I drive) need to be evaluated—by asking those at a station with only one set of prices*—"Are your cash and credit prices the same?" He would either have to do a lot of tedious button pushing before driving or simply stop blindly at every station that appears to need that question asked. And, if one is zigging and zagging around a densely-station-populated area trying to catch them all, it soon becomes a blur as to which ones have been updated.

In summary, it would be helpful to keep track of which stations have yet to be updated, so that one's route can be adjusted accordingly.

----
*For states where there is no law requiring both cash and credit pricing be displayed to the street (and where one is not too far off base by assuming that all stations are obeying that law).
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Don
Moderator
Message Posted: Jun 18, 2013 7:08:58 PM

"The alternative is for each member—assuming everyone will participate, which is a big if—to just do the stations in his ordinary travel and hope that all the stations get done eventually. "Put one hand out for hope and one hand out for poop and see which gets filled first." "

What you're describing is a less polite way of putting things if you want to discuss how the MSL was compiled (and still is being added to, daily). We had users running to check the MSL after their travels to see if a station is missing or not, and if the station is missing, they would take the time to submit a new entry and ensure the accuracy of their data (if not overly accurate, it was corrected by other members).

This is a similar idea in that respect, only we're hoping this is a much less tedious task to accomplish - in regards to the fact there are more users, with a larger existing volume of stations in the database.

Thanks for any and all help you guys can provide!

-Don


[Edited by: Don at 6/18/2013 7:11:10 PM EST]
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CampKohler
Champion Author Sacramento

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Message Posted: Jun 18, 2013 1:52:49 PM

kwzh: How will members know to evaluate a station for MO & CC without having some way to see which stations have already been done? That will mean a lot of people repeatedly using the MSL Edit button just to find out what is what, which is a LOT of work.

The alternative is for each member—assuming everyone will participate, which is a big if—to just do the stations in his ordinary travel and hope that all the stations get done eventually. "Put one hand out for hope and one hand out for poop and see which gets filled first."
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scoutmaster
Champion Author Pittsburgh

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Message Posted: Jun 7, 2013 5:15:27 AM

No insult kwzh. Actually, it's a very accurate way to describe this topic. At best, this should be a discussion for each individual site.
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kwzh
Champion Author San Jose

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Message Posted: Jun 6, 2013 11:42:44 PM

CK: I already did this on my site, before I even saw this message, though I took the simpler approach of just announcing the new feature and then updating the MSL for the dual-priced stations on my FSL. I think anything beyond that is overkill -- as long we the system is using two- rather than three-state logic for the features, it's too much work to try to track which features are "not present" vs "not known".

SM: "Lame reason" sounds sort of like a complaint, but I'll downgrade it to the usual gratuitous insult instead.
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scoutmaster
Champion Author Pittsburgh

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Message Posted: Jun 6, 2013 5:05:21 PM

I'm not complaining about it. Gas Buddy, are you complaining about it? It seems to me CampKohler, the only one complaining about it is you!
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CampKohler
Champion Author Sacramento

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Message Posted: Jun 6, 2013 4:50:30 PM

Yes, but that gives others an excuse to complain about it. So EVERYBODY's happy!!!!
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scoutmaster
Champion Author Pittsburgh

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Message Posted: Jun 5, 2013 9:56:32 PM

It doesn't Gas Buddy, but it gives some people something to do and a very lame reason to start a new topic.
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Gas_Buddy
Champion Author Maryland

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Message Posted: Jun 5, 2013 6:35:53 PM

Why does updating the Master Station List have to be some kind of formal campaign with indicators and such? Why not suggest that Gas Buddy management simply provide a periodic "pop-up" that suggests that members review the Master Station List for accuracy in order that the most current information is posted. This pop-up could be a one (or several) time pop-up that could either be automatic when a member posts a gas price, or when the home page is opened.

I don't see why there needs to be a formal "concerted campaign" with editing indicators or temporary lists and check boxes to indicate updating has taken place. Make it simple something simple.
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CampKohler
Champion Author Sacramento

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Message Posted: Jun 5, 2013 4:47:01 PM

Another way of providing an aid to allow users to see from the MSL Station List pages if a station has been evaluated would be to display at the bottom of each record the first 20 chars of the Station Notes field. Users could put in that space the fact that a station had been updated, e.g. "MO & CC evaluated" and could tell that no further action was needed for the particular station.
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scoutmaster
Champion Author Pittsburgh

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Message Posted: Jun 5, 2013 11:37:35 AM

I figured out why that link didn't work for me and also what MO & CC stand for. And based on what else I found out, it's only a matter of time until these are fully implemented.
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scoutmaster
Champion Author Pittsburgh

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Message Posted: Jun 5, 2013 6:16:25 AM

The link in the 1st line leads to "We're sorry! This topic is no longer available." so what are MO & CC boxes?
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