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Author Topic: Five minutes is sometimes not long enough to update a message! Back to Topics
Sneakers55

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Message Posted: Mar 6, 2013 11:14:41 AM

Especially if you're the type of writer who does some research on the subject and decides to update the message... only to have GasBuddy reject the update because they didn't update fast enough. This could be fixed easily by treating a response to update a message where five minutes has gone by as being a request for a new message. As it stands now, GasBuddy somehow is able to recognize the message as being updated and you can't put it in. Even if you cut and paste into a new message. (Or maybe I'm not doing it right.)
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kwzh
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Message Posted: Mar 21, 2013 12:38:54 AM

I don't know if it's less of a community site now -- I would guess that if the FAQ list didn't exist, then the same procedure as before would still work. (I noted which questions I'd seen enough times that they should be covered; I posted a call for people to add more of them; after a while, I posted my answers and asked for improvements; another helpful member contributed an off-site location to house the results; eventually GasBuddy adopted the text, with permission.)
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CampKohler
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Message Posted: Mar 20, 2013 8:22:06 PM

SM: Yes, but no diesel.
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Gas_Buddy
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Message Posted: Mar 20, 2013 1:11:29 PM

It may be that members respond to questions (that weren't necessarily looked up in the FAQ section), but on a number of occasions the responses have varied, if not disagreed. All members can do, as they do for fuel pricing, is provide guidance. The official answers, if the members aren't correct, is the responsibility of the moderators and the organization. If I remember correctly, and kwzh can probably answer this better than most, is that the members provided their FAQ input when this website was relatively new and much more a "community" website than it is now.

Even if you look at the number of regular participants in two of the three primary discussion categories (where issues/suggestions, etc. are), Talk Back To Us, Suggest a GasBuddy Improvement, and General Gas Talk, you'll only see about a dozen and a half regular participants (if even that many); there may be some others who pop up with their new topics irregularly. But responses are generally by very small number of members, supplemented by the moderators (who, I assume, have confidence in most of our responses, even if we disagree with their responses, perspective, or timeliness).

In any case, the "official" FAQs and tutorials are the responsibility of the moderators and Gas Buddy, not members at large. Members at large shouldn't have the ability to change, update or edit the FAQs or tutorials at will just because each thinks he can edit or reword or knows better than another member. CampKohler (however much I may disagree with him) has taken considerable time and effort to make his many and varied "guidance sites" or wikis or whatever they are; but that represents him (and him alone), it doesn't represent Gas Buddy officially. If others think they can or should rewrite the FAQs or tutorials, they can do what CampKohler did (even though I don't always understand what it is or its value); they can start their own "guidance" to pass on to others.
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scoutmaster
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Message Posted: Mar 20, 2013 11:32:48 AM

Yup Zim that is kinda funny. But the responsibility for keeping those updated is the moderators or programmers or site owners. We as volunteers can only make suggestions regarding them.

[Edited by: scoutmaster at 3/20/2013 11:33:27 AM EST]
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Zimcity
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Message Posted: Mar 20, 2013 10:37:19 AM

"FAQ's, tutorials are the responsibility of the site, not the volunteers."

And isn't it funny how most of the FAQ's were put together by the vlounteers and most of the questions in Talk Back are generally answered by us in the peanut gallery.
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scoutmaster
Champion Author Pittsburgh

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Message Posted: Mar 19, 2013 8:07:43 PM

Do you have gas CampKohler?
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CampKohler
Champion Author Sacramento

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Message Posted: Mar 19, 2013 7:57:17 PM

Pfft!
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scoutmaster
Champion Author Pittsburgh

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Message Posted: Mar 19, 2013 2:28:32 PM

FAQ's, tutorials are the responsibility of the site, not the volunteers.
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CampKohler
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Message Posted: Mar 19, 2013 2:27:38 PM

Another benefit of an unlimited edit window is that it allows the existence of permanent works, i.e. FAQs, tutorials, non-statndard fuels reporting and the like. As it stands, a permanent work can only be copied, modified and re-posted as a whole, which does not allow links to work. (As links must be posted in GB markup, the view source HTML behind the forum can't be used directly for re-posting.)
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SUVFan
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Message Posted: Mar 18, 2013 9:36:51 AM

Zim's point about fixing a broken link is a good one.

I had one local thread get closed because the link to a TV News piece in the lead post was no longer any good (it turns out that an unusual local story I had posted involved another local member's kid and they asked that it be taken down) and that was the reason the moderator used to close the thread. I had no way of knowing about the relationship, nor should that really matter especially since the kid was OK, though they had been embarrassingly careless with a firearm and suffered damage to their knee.

I was aware of the bad link and if I could have edited the lead post, I would have substituted a new link to a similar story. Of course, I would have noted the reason for the edit. As it is, the thread still exists with the bad link.
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Zimcity
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Message Posted: Mar 15, 2013 9:41:01 AM

There are times where more than 5 minutes would be nice.

Like fixing a broken link, or noticing a typo after 5 minutes have gone by.

One of my pet peeves is the use of a non-fixed font, where my nice columns of data get out of line after posting a table.

I don't have much concern over people abusing the edit period.

[Edited by: Zimcity at 3/15/2013 9:42:03 AM EST]
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scoutmaster
Champion Author Pittsburgh

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Message Posted: Mar 15, 2013 8:34:06 AM

Totally agree Gas Buddy. The forums aren't blogs. If you have something extensive to post, type it all out in a word processing document, make all your edits then copy and paste it into the forums.
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Scrapheap
Champion Author Virginia

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Message Posted: Mar 13, 2013 11:54:47 PM

Well if you can't give a reason for trying a longer time, that is simply demonstrating obstinence and hubris on your part.
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Gas_Buddy
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Message Posted: Mar 13, 2013 11:47:29 PM

I would go along with a 10 minute edit window; I simplany don't see a reason or a need to make it longer (or, worse, virtually indefinite). Ten minutes should be more than enough time to find minor errors and correct them.

If an entire rewrite is necessary there are alternatives mentioned below.
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Scrapheap
Champion Author Virginia

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Message Posted: Mar 13, 2013 8:49:56 PM

Gas_Buddy - You really didn't answer my question. Whenever this idea is raised, there are always opinions from 2 camps. Camp 1 doesn't want to lengthen the time or is only willing to do so on a marginal level. They always raise issues of potential abuse. Camp 2, often siting experience with other forums that have a much longer edit limit, or no limit at all, would like to raise the edit time. From real world experience, Camp 2 claims that there is little or no abuse with a long limit. Someone from Camp 2 suggested a trial period with a very long edit time, someone from Camp 1 agreed to try it, albeit for a longer period of time. Why won't you agree to simply try it? What do you have to lose?
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SUVFan
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Message Posted: Mar 13, 2013 11:57:12 AM

Regarding kwzh's comment about replies after an edit, about the only forums where there is much chance that someone might reply within the 5 minute editing window are the DNAD and US Politics areas in my experience.¹

In DNAD, so few of the posts relate to each other that I doubt anyone would care? I suppose someone could submit an article through Newville's Submit a News Article link and then go find their new thread in DNAD within 5 minutes and edit it to say something else. I don't think that changes the article in Newsville, as when someone besides PD decides to nuke a piece, often the DNAD thread will remain open after the Newsville item is gone.

In the US Politics area, it just gives folks something else to harp on each other about . . . .

So I guess what I'm driving at, to borrow some basketball parlance, is "No harm, no foul."

Scoutmaster, glad I could help, and thanks to kwzh for the grammatical explanation.

¹Obviously, there could be isolated exceptions -- it's just exceptionally rare in my experience even in active TBTU threads that replies are made that quickly.
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scoutmaster
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Message Posted: Mar 13, 2013 5:14:23 AM

Thanks for clearing that up SUVFan.
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kwzh
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Message Posted: Mar 13, 2013 12:54:28 AM

Note that it's currently possible to edit a message even after someone has replied to it. This hasn't been a problem, as far as I know.
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Gas_Buddy
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Message Posted: Mar 12, 2013 11:48:42 PM

Scrapheap:

I've said in the past that a 10-minute editing window would be acceptable versus a 5-minute window. That said, if I create a post, and you respond to the specifics of my post, and I then go back and edit my original post, perhaps changing the specifics or (as "research" was mentioned earlier in this thread) I make considerable changes to my original post, it makes your comments look ill-informed or (worse) that you didn't understand what I was saying (as there's no context of any of my changes other than I edited it).

For that reason I've come around to, while willing to accept a longer editing window (say 10 minutes), I can't see an indefinite or even lengthy editing window, and feel that an unlimited (or perhaps more reasonable amount of time) "most recent post" would be a better answer.

That said, to me, the editing window should be for just that; edits. The editing window shouldn't be an open-ended window in which to do research against an original post. That should be reserved for a newer stand-alone (i.e., not edited) post, hopefully with an annotation that "This is an update...correct...additional information...etc., to the earlier post."

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TxJeans
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Message Posted: Mar 12, 2013 10:17:11 PM

@GGG "When a longer edit window was discussed in the past, some including me stated that it would be useful to have a very long edit window based on positive experience in other non-GB discussion forums.

But other regulars here insisted that it would be subject to abuse, which may be true, but doesn't say much for the kind of members who use these forums."

While I have seen a longer edit work in other forums, I think it would be a disaster in a forum with the format of this forum...with the type of membership and the lack of adequate other forum tools. Not a one size fits all forums type of thing.
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kwzh
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Message Posted: Mar 12, 2013 8:20:21 PM

scoutmaster, the antecedent of "them" in that sentence was "CK". I.e., SUVFan was opining that CK's "Done!" meant "[Your 3-month suggestion] is fine with me [CK]!"
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Scrapheap
Champion Author Virginia

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Message Posted: Mar 12, 2013 3:35:31 PM

Gas_Buddy - Is there a reason why you can't agree to give a longer edit time a trial run?
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Gas_Buddy
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Message Posted: Mar 12, 2013 1:28:27 PM

While I understand both sides of the discussion, and would go along with a slightly longer period (though I prefer my earlier suggestion of only the most recent posting can be updated for a longer time), GoGoGoodYear wrote:

"But other regulars here insisted that it would be subject to abuse, which may be true, but doesn't say much for the kind of members who use these forums."

When you consider how many members post complaints about fake prices, members simply repeaating prices others reported, as well as others simply making up prices, in some cases for stations all across a city, as well as the complaints about the "Ok" posting members, etc., considering that some may abuse the forums is a valid concern, though "abuse" is a harsh word. I still feel, however, that allowing edits after another member has posted a response or reply to the first post can render the response/reply disconnected from the "new" original post.
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scoutmaster
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Message Posted: Mar 12, 2013 1:17:57 PM

I understand using a gender neutral term, but that doesn't answer who them refers to.
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SUVFan
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Message Posted: Mar 12, 2013 11:28:17 AM

>Who is them> Does CK work for Gas Buddy? <

"Them" or "they" are substitutes I use for he/she when I don't know their gender, as is typically the case on GB. I'm just following the old GM's lead, having observed them (GM) use that approach any number of times back in the day.
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GoGoGoodyear
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Message Posted: Mar 12, 2013 3:54:07 AM


When a longer edit window was discussed in the past, some including me stated that it would be useful to have a very long edit window based on positive experience in other non-GB discussion forums.

But other regulars here insisted that it would be subject to abuse, which may be true, but doesn't say much for the kind of members who use these forums.

I agree that other functions like quoting would be a big improvement. The GB forums as they are now have less features than some text BBS servers I ran back in the 80's.
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Gas_Buddy
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Message Posted: Mar 11, 2013 4:18:00 PM

Obviously it would be good if a member making the change indicated what was changed (and perhaps why), but as that's an unreasonable expectation, an alternative would be "the member making the post can edit his/her post at any time until such time as another member makes a post."

That way, if a second member makes a post responding to the original (incorrect/un-updated) post, it doesn't appear that the second member is responding to something not posted. That is, if I post something, TXJeans responds to it and corrects me or agrees with me or whatever, then I come back (after TXJeans' post) and change my post, it doesn't appear TXJeans is responding to my newest post, which may be entirely different than what I first wrote (which is entirely likely as people here have said that they need to do "research" after making their post, in order to correct it; and if there's "after the post" research necessary, it's entirely likely that context of the original post will be changed).

So, "the last posting member can edit his/her comments until such time as a newer post has been made to the thread."

And, on another issue: CK works for Gas Buddy? Is this something new?
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scoutmaster
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Message Posted: Mar 11, 2013 1:05:35 PM

Who is them> Does CK work for Gas Buddy?
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SUVFan
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Message Posted: Mar 11, 2013 12:19:34 PM

SM, I'd suspect that CK is simply saying you're 3 month suggestion is fine with them, as if it were an auction and you just won.
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RogerB
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Message Posted: Mar 11, 2013 2:04:01 AM

Another option is to post a corrected version right above the one you don't like.
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scoutmaster
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Message Posted: Mar 10, 2013 8:02:29 PM

Done??? Does that mean you are done CK?
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CampKohler
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Message Posted: Mar 10, 2013 4:18:04 PM

Done!
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scoutmaster
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Message Posted: Mar 10, 2013 6:27:16 AM

I like the idea of a trial run. 3 months would be a better time frame.
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CampKohler
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Message Posted: Mar 9, 2013 4:13:26 PM

Here's an idea: Turn on unlimited edit window for a week or a month and see if the world actually goes to hell in a handbasket or not. And putting square pegs in square holes, we could appoint Scoutmaster as Official Edit Warden (OEW)—which position comes with a hat, armband and whistle—to expose anyone plying any editing monkey business in these hallowed halls .

There! Problem solved.



[Edited by: CampKohler at 3/9/2013 4:14:33 PM EST]
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scoutmaster
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Message Posted: Mar 9, 2013 7:55:51 AM

You will never have a perfect system. I would support going to 10 minutes but anything over that is built for abuse.
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CampKohler
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Message Posted: Mar 8, 2013 5:51:17 PM

Another failing of the 5-minute window is unintended interruptions that prevent using it. If comms go down for one reason or another, by the time you figure out what is wrong and fix it, the five minutes has passed.
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scoutmaster
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Message Posted: Mar 8, 2013 6:56:45 AM

"Posted above this sentence is exactly what you get when you follow that process. There is no indication of where it came from or that it is a copy."

You are correct SUVFan regarding not knowing where it came from. Having a reply to would be nice and one would be able to direct their comments to another member better.
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kwzh
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Message Posted: Mar 8, 2013 3:31:04 AM

I've occasionally posted a message and then realized that it needed to be fleshed out in a way that could not likely be completed within the edit window. In this case, I click the Edit button, copy the entire message into a text editor, replace the text with "[edit in progress]" or maybe just a dot. I then compose the real message in the text editor. When it's done to my satisfaction, I click Edit again and replace the stub message with the real message, or if the window has expired and the stub message is now permanent, then I post it as a follow-up.

I'll agree that this seems considerably less user-friendly than it could be -- and I don't think we'd have serious problems if the edit window were to be expanded to infinity.
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CampKohler
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Message Posted: Mar 7, 2013 1:30:13 PM

The quote button suggestion, while being related, is different, and deserves, in order to not get buried, it's own topic.

The trouble with a quote button is that most people are too lazy to pick the pertinent sentence out of a msg that might be a page long, so they quote the entire thing like this:

Dierdre said >> "Red is SUCH a gauche color, don't you think? Why just look at the victim's clothes at a bloody murder scene and you can see what I mean. Oh, what time is it? I don't want to be late for my toothpick-sharpening appointment. A lovely violet would be so much more peaceful and in keeping with the solemn occasion. Yes, a light violet would be essential. (And yadda, yadda, yadda for three more paragraphs.)""

The reply: "2 PM."

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SUVFan
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Message Posted: Mar 7, 2013 1:05:29 PM

Highlight + right click = decent copy tool.

Posted above this sentence is exactly what you get when you follow that process. There is no indication of where it came from or that it is a copy. On a computer, it's not that hard to find quotes or other symbols, but on a hand held device, I think that might even challenge kids. Now, if after we triple-right click on it again, highlighting the whole phrase, we could then select a button that said, "quote", or something similar, producing a box that identified the copied material as a quote, we'd have something that I'd consider "decent." If the tool could somehow ID the source post, so much the better:

Quote:
_____________________________________________________
: Highlight + right click = decent copy tool.
:
:e.g., Posted by Scoutmaster, Mar 7, 2013 11:55:01
-----------------------------------------------------

I'm not meaning to steer discussion from the original topic -- I just believe the edit function and the ability to post responses to posts are intertwined.

[Edited by: SUVFan at 3/7/2013 1:10:52 PM EST]
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scoutmaster
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Message Posted: Mar 7, 2013 11:55:01 AM

Highlight + right click = decent copy tool.
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Wanda127
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Message Posted: Mar 7, 2013 10:39:07 AM

I agree with SUVFan.
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SUVFan
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Message Posted: Mar 7, 2013 10:38:29 AM

Adding to yesterday's thoughts, a decent copy tool would be nice, too.

I'm referring to the kind that, for example, allow you to select a portion of the post that you intend to respond to and then click "quote" (or select it in your posting window and click "quote") and the quoted text is placed in a box or otherwise separated. Some of us achieve something similar with a manual function of placing the quoted text in between a couple of symbols, such as >quote<, but I'd rather see something more uniform.

That function would lessen the problem of having someone change their post after a comment, as the quoted material would be easier to spot.
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TxJeans
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Message Posted: Mar 6, 2013 7:54:37 PM

Since we do not have a "reply to" feature, I tend to agree with SUVFan.

1) time for hot heads to cool off
2) time to fix fat fingered typing that you didn't notice until posted
3) too much time can make others responses seem off - since there isn't the reply feature, someone might not recognize why the remark was made.
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CampKohler
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Message Posted: Mar 6, 2013 7:46:42 PM

This suggestion has been added to the Suggestion Tracking List as a new topic on an existing subject.

Anyone who often engages in the practice of altering old msgs to "change history" is soon uncovered. I have used BBS's that have no edit limits and have seen no ill effects. However, I have no idea how to prevent the fear of unlimited edits from having ill effects. (Some people get skeert easy.)
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Scrapheap
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Message Posted: Mar 6, 2013 1:18:33 PM

SUVFan wrote > The problem with allowing a longer editing time is that edits can render comments meaningless.

I think this would be a very rare and minor issue. That is my experience with sites that allow unlimited edits. There is a time edited stamp on every edited post so people can fairly easily see that a post has been changed.
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scoutmaster
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Message Posted: Mar 6, 2013 1:02:13 PM

If it takes longer than 5 minutes then I suggest you type everything out in a word processing program, do all you editing there then post it all to the topic.

So in other words, I agree with maxstar and Gas Buddy.
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SUVFan
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Message Posted: Mar 6, 2013 12:46:11 PM

Spell checker is there for typos. The edit function has to be there for more than that.

My guess? To let folks decide if they really want to say whatever they posted. It gives them a chance to go back and remove a personal attack.

The problem with allowing a longer editing time is that edits can render comments meaningless.

Many of us have asked/hoped for the ability to respond directly to a particular posts, which would at least allow the thread starter to post a reply directly under the lead, but that probably won't be a feature here unless the new owners decide they want to expand the messaging functions. At that point, we'd get fonts (at least bold and italics) and other features common to message boards that we don't have.
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Gas_Buddy
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Message Posted: Mar 6, 2013 12:11:59 PM

Not saying this cynically, but I have to agree with maxstar that the five minute edit time isn't supposed to be for "Let's see, I wrote this/that/and the other, let me check some things to see if that's correct, make sure I have my facts rights."

It's supposed to be for, "Darn, I left out a word or two, misspelled Snakers55 and Snarkers55 names, let me do a quick rewording of that sentence."

Your research should be before you post, not for an immediate correction.

If you think you need to do research after you post, you can do a follow-up post (as maxstar suggested), perhaps including a "Let me follow-up on my earlier post" comment, or, if you think that you need time to research the issue and do an entire rewrite or notably delayed response, simply delete the post by editing it with a simple "Post deleted to obtain additional information" replacement for what you originally wrote.

Most of us don't disagree that the five minute limitation is short, but, again, the edit time wasn't intended for research, but to allow you to quickly edit what you first wrote.

[Edited for a misplaced and possibly confusing comma]


[Edited by: Gas_Buddy at 3/6/2013 12:15:36 PM EST]
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maxstar
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Message Posted: Mar 6, 2013 11:42:59 AM

I have always regarded the edit time as giving the user to correct typos that have been made in the original post. I have never viewed as an opportunity to do research. That is something that is better done before the original post. If additional information comes to light after the original post, add it as a follow up post.
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