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Author	Topic: A list of suggestions that have been added to Suggestion Tracking List as subjects that smell funny.	Post a Reply Back to Topics

MARIOWERX Champion Author Vancouver Posts:15,927 Points:1,638,785 Joined:Oct 2008	Message Posted: Dec 28, 2012 11:47:01 PM Ignore MARIOWERX Report Abuse Can we have a few more unsolicited attempts to add subjects to a wiki list and other unassociated websites to give others that feel the need for spaghettified sites involving Gasbuddy ?.

MARIOWERX

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Vancouver

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Message Posted: Dec 28, 2012 11:47:01 PM

Ignore MARIOWERX Report Abuse

Can we have a few more unsolicited attempts to add subjects to a wiki list and other unassociated websites to give others that feel the need for spaghettified sites involving Gasbuddy ?.

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scoutmaster Champion Author Pittsburgh Posts:81,254 Points:3,252,645 Joined:Mar 2003	Message Posted: Jan 10, 2013 6:47:46 AM Ignore scoutmaster Report Abuse "I should rephrase that to: "there's no easy method FOR OTHERS to determine if anyone is reading it..." " Yeah there is. A hit counter can be visible on the home page for all to see. "Please read up on copyright and fair use principles as applied in the US. As I stated previously fair use trumps copyright." I have. If I copyright something it can list specifics as to use by others."So your position is that all of us are not 'members' of GB? We signed up and have a login account." We are members of Gas Buddy. I never said we weren't. What I said is in my opinion the Gas Buddy organization is the owners, moderators and other staff members. We are not staff members. We are volunteer spotters.
MARIOWERX Champion Author Vancouver Posts:15,927 Points:1,638,785 Joined:Oct 2008	Message Posted: Jan 9, 2013 8:01:03 PM Ignore MARIOWERX Report Abuse ....sigh.....
GoGoGoodyear Champion Author Los Angeles Posts:2,049 Points:507,105 Joined:Mar 2010	Message Posted: Jan 9, 2013 7:15:42 PM Ignore GoGoGoodyear Report Abuse "As Scout pointed out CK doesn't even know how many people look at it..."; "There is an easy method to determine the number of hits a site gets. It's called a hit counter..." I should rephrase that to: "there's no easy method FOR OTHERS to determine if anyone is reading it..." although since the list is on a wiki site which anyone can edit, it follows that someone other than CK could add the code for one of the many free hit counters to any of the pages, if that kind of content is allowed. . . "Anyone (member or not) is permitted to copy portions of authored work..." "This could be true, but not in all cases. Some companies or people may not want their material used..." Please read up on copyright and fair use principles as applied in the US. As I stated previously fair use trumps copyright. It is a right granted to the public as a limited exception to copyright, and if the use meets the legal test the material CAN be used DESPITE the objections of the copyright owner. Keep in mind that copyright exists not only for the benefit of the creator/author but the rights and benefits of the public at large by stimulating creativity and promoting the progress of science and the arts. The two are not mutually exclusive. . . "CK states "This unofficial list is maintained by members of the GasBuddy Organization" "This may just be a technicality but I feel the Gas Buddy Organization are the owners and moderators..." So your position is that all of us are not 'members' of GB? We signed up and have a login account. GB refers to us as members, which is a distinction from staff or employee. You are either not thinking clearly or have officially scraped the bottom of the barrel in reaching for new arguments to support your position. . . "From what I can see CK is not even claiming copyright to his own work (the list.)" "He can't! It's not his to copyright!" Sigh... the author(s) of THE WIKI LIST are CK, and anyone else who contributes to it by editing the wiki. It meets the US copyright requirement that the idea (of a list of topics) be reduced to tangible form, which was done by creating the list. Again, please read up a bit on copyright and fair use principles.
scoutmaster Champion Author Pittsburgh Posts:81,254 Points:3,252,645 Joined:Mar 2003	Message Posted: Jan 9, 2013 6:46:00 AM Ignore scoutmaster Report Abuse " As Scout pointed out CK doesn't even know how many people look at it, so there's no easy method to determine if anyone is reading it, therefore not possible to begin the process of determining if it's useful to anyone else." There is an easy method to determine the number of hits a site gets. It's called a hit counter. There are a lot of free ones available. "Anyone (member or not) is permitted to copy portions of authored work for the purpose of commentary, illustrating a point or education." This could be true, but not in all cases. Some companies or people may not want their material used for anything else. Some companies or people may be OK with it as long as you pay them a fee. There are way too many variables to make the statement you made GGG. "To the contrary, CK states "This unofficial list is maintained by members of the GasBuddy Organization" This may just be a technicality but I feel the Gas Buddy Organization are the owners and moderators and other paid staff of Gas Buddy. CK doesn't fit into any of these categories. CK is a volunteer. "From what I can see CK is not even claiming copyright to his own work (the list.)" He can't! It's not his to copyright!
GoGoGoodyear Champion Author Los Angeles Posts:2,049 Points:507,105 Joined:Mar 2010	Message Posted: Jan 9, 2013 6:21:34 AM Ignore GoGoGoodyear Report Abuse That's right, I have an AGENDA! (is everyone out to get you?) Some seem to be hell bent on carrying on this illogical conclusion; You and I may not need that list, but that doesn't mean someone else won't. It may serve a purpose for others. As Scout pointed out CK doesn't even know how many people look at it, so there's no easy method to determine if anyone is reading it, therefore not possible to begin the process of determining if it's useful to anyone else. I suppose you could create a poll... but that in itself would skew the results since other members who never knew of the wiki list might go and read it because of the poll... ahhh, the rigors of science! True, it's not endorsed but as Scrap points out, they would probably have done something about it by now if it was a problem. In any case that's up to them, not any of us. It's surprising nobody has brought it up before but since it's an alphabetized list of some of the content on GB it's not unlike the service provided by a search engine (Google, Yahoo, etc.) except it's maintained manually instead of by automation. . . So to recap: MARIOWERX stated: "it just seems like a hi-jacking of Gasbuddy own Suggest an improvement, in which moderaters are involved instead of _SOME WIKI ORDAINED MEMBER WHO DETERMINES WHAT IS OF VALUE OR WHAT IS NOT OF VALUE BY POSTING TO ANOTHER SITE..._" (emphasis mine) In other words, making an independent commentary or opinion on another's authored opinions, covered under fair use. and... "...should cease and desist promoting his or her own site AS IF IT WERE ENDORSED BY GASBUDDY." (emphasis mine) I could not find any posts by CK on GB or anything on the wiki list itself that even hints at the list being endorsed by or an official part of GB. (To the contrary, CK states "This unofficial list is maintained by members of the GasBuddy Organization...") From what I can see CK is not even claiming copyright to his own work (the list.) I asked: "People use third party sites to post photos and other info and link to it from GB. Those third party sites and content are also maintained at no expense or detriment to GB. Should e.g. Photobucket or Flikr be taken down or GB members otherwise be prohibited from linking to their content from GB? " There is a good reason for that question, which went unanswered. From the GB Privacy Policy: "External Links: This site contains links to many other sites. We are not in any way responsible for the privacy policies and practices or the content of such web sites..." It's understood that this fairly standard website disclaimer serves primarily to distance GB from blame for any content not under their control which they or others may link to, AND the disclaimer's existence also makes the point that GB neither endorses nor prohibits links to external content. Further example of this is that GB provides the technology and the means to create links to external content for their members to use in various parts of GB including the message forums. I asked for an explanation of how it might be a detriment to GB, and the response was a link to another discussion thread about watching out for copyright limits when posting information to GB from other sources. It's understood that GB owns copyright to the content on GB, however that does not trump fair use. Anyone (member or not) is permitted to copy portions of authored work for the purpose of commentary, illustrating a point or education. Anyone is allowed to stand on a street corner (or a virtual one like this forum) and express their views. Whether anyone listens (reads) or not is immaterial, so arguments about the usefulness of the list are only a red herring, so would arguments about commercial value or dilution of trademark since the wiki list does not hold itself out as a business venture. . And finally; "if it is such little concern to you , why all the posts? " Well it's more meaningful than posting 'OK' responses to every news article.
Scrapheap Champion Author Virginia Posts:14,546 Points:2,358,080 Joined:Sep 2006	Message Posted: Jan 8, 2013 12:09:49 PM Ignore Scrapheap Report Abuse If this were of a concern to GasBuddy, they probably would have done something by now. They are certainly aware of the wiki. It doesn't appear they care. Maybe you shouldn't either.
MARIOWERX Champion Author Vancouver Posts:15,927 Points:1,638,785 Joined:Oct 2008	Message Posted: Jan 8, 2013 11:14:45 AM Ignore MARIOWERX Report Abuse GGG if it is such little concern to you , why all the posts? Or do you have another agenda?
scoutmaster Champion Author Pittsburgh Posts:81,254 Points:3,252,645 Joined:Mar 2003	Message Posted: Jan 8, 2013 5:50:03 AM Ignore scoutmaster Report Abuse It;s not needed GGG. It serves no purpose. CK has no idea if anyone is using it. It's not endorsed by GB. I built a site on a free service about GB guidelines that was specific to the Pittsburgh area. I ran it past the powers that be on this site and they gave it their blessing and there was link on a sticky topic in the Pittsburgh forum. Nothing on the site was from this site. CK hasn't done that with his wiki.
GoGoGoodyear Champion Author Los Angeles Posts:2,049 Points:507,105 Joined:Mar 2010	Message Posted: Jan 8, 2013 5:45:51 AM Ignore GoGoGoodyear Report Abuse Scout, I wonder what it is about that off-site wiki list that gets your panties all knotted up? Nobody else seems to care much one way or the other.
scoutmaster Champion Author Pittsburgh Posts:81,254 Points:3,252,645 Joined:Mar 2003	Message Posted: Jan 6, 2013 12:39:42 PM Ignore scoutmaster Report Abuse If GB issued a cease and desist order to CK, he could fight it and he might lose. Considering CK has no idea if anyone uses his wiki, I don't think taking his chances in court is a good idea.
Scrapheap Champion Author Virginia Posts:14,546 Points:2,358,080 Joined:Sep 2006	Message Posted: Jan 6, 2013 10:59:30 AM Ignore Scrapheap Report Abuse There is no Copyright infringement as what he provides is protected under fair use. If you are going to accuse CK of Copyright infringement, then GasBuddy is just as guilty if not more so, just look at the news section.
scoutmaster Champion Author Pittsburgh Posts:81,254 Points:3,252,645 Joined:Mar 2003	Message Posted: Jan 6, 2013 6:33:39 AM Ignore scoutmaster Report Abuse ....and if GGG took the time to read he might have found this. The last paragraph is especially applicable. Here's the thing regarding hits, GGG. The number of hits tells you how many people are visiting your site. That is basic information every site owner should know.
MARIOWERX Champion Author Vancouver Posts:15,927 Points:1,638,785 Joined:Oct 2008	Message Posted: Jan 6, 2013 1:15:12 AM Ignore MARIOWERX Report Abuse If and that is a big if GoGoGoodyear took the time to read he would see CK defending Copyright on that link and the if (lol) took the time to read the bottom of every posted GB page and see that it is Copyright 2010-2013.
GoGoGoodyear Champion Author Los Angeles Posts:2,049 Points:507,105 Joined:Mar 2010	Message Posted: Jan 5, 2013 11:07:45 PM Ignore GoGoGoodyear Report Abuse LOL scout... CK has no idea how many hits the site gets! STRING HIM UP!! NOW!! (said in a loud, mocking Jay Leno voice)
GoGoGoodyear Champion Author Los Angeles Posts:2,049 Points:507,105 Joined:Mar 2010	Message Posted: Jan 5, 2013 11:01:40 PM Ignore GoGoGoodyear Report Abuse Copyright infringement? I doubt it. It's probably allowed under "fair use." BTW wrong copyright link... that thread discusses posting other's copyrighted information ON a GB page.
kwzh Champion Author San Jose Posts:20,649 Points:3,683,360 Joined:Jul 2001	Message Posted: Jan 5, 2013 5:35:53 AM Ignore kwzh Report Abuse Has there been any indication from a moderator that there's a problem with CK's list? I'm not aware of any.
scoutmaster Champion Author Pittsburgh Posts:81,254 Points:3,252,645 Joined:Mar 2003	Message Posted: Jan 4, 2013 6:55:52 AM Ignore scoutmaster Report Abuse Great point Mario. CK is using parts of this site in his wiki and as far as I know he doesn't have the permission to do so. That would be copyright infringement. While the site is organized alphabetically, it is still a big list of stuff that is new, old and outdated. CK has no idea how many hits the site gets! This is nothing more than a sorted Word document!
MARIOWERX Champion Author Vancouver Posts:15,927 Points:1,638,785 Joined:Oct 2008	Message Posted: Jan 4, 2013 5:52:33 AM Ignore MARIOWERX Report Abuse Seeing Gasbuddy.com has taken the time to copyright they may find it detrimental and may even find it actionable in a court of law.
GoGoGoodyear Champion Author Los Angeles Posts:2,049 Points:507,105 Joined:Mar 2010	Message Posted: Jan 4, 2013 5:15:56 AM Ignore GoGoGoodyear Report Abuse Ok, I looked at your link and saw a page explaining what gas station info to put into the MSL. It doesn't look unmanageable and apparently someone is managing it. It's not useful to me personally at this point in my GB membership but it might be useful to someone who recently joined GB. You are attributing to me something that I did not yet express... I did not state that the STL is of value to me, but let's clear that up: I've looked at the list a few times since it was created and I CAN see it being a useful tool when such a need comes up, but up to the present I have not needed to consult that list. I did find the explanation on how GB 'localizes' html links and some other technical detail that CK investigated to be useful. So as I asked previously if the STL is being maintained at no expense or detriment to GB, and using it is entirely optional, how is it's existence a detriment to GB regardless if you, I, or someone else finds it useful or not? My previous analogy to a fan maintained website containing info about some actor notwithstanding (due to complex issues of copyright, that should be a separate discussion) here's another closer analogy: People use third party sites to post photos and other info and link to it from GB. Those third party sites and content are also maintained at no expense or detriment to GB. Should e.g. Photobucket or Flikr be taken down or GB members otherwise be prohibited from linking to their content from GB?
scoutmaster Champion Author Pittsburgh Posts:81,254 Points:3,252,645 Joined:Mar 2003	Message Posted: Jan 3, 2013 6:22:47 AM Ignore scoutmaster Report Abuse Sure. Look at this. Is this what GB wants members to do? Does GB want an unmanageable site associated with them? CampKohler has no idea how many hits his site gets hence he has no idea if anyone is using it. I've looked around his site and I find it useless. Now since you think it is of value, GGG, how about explaining your reasoning?
GoGoGoodyear Champion Author Los Angeles Posts:2,049 Points:507,105 Joined:Mar 2010	Message Posted: Jan 3, 2013 5:10:13 AM Ignore GoGoGoodyear Report Abuse Explain how it's a detriment to GB.
scoutmaster Champion Author Pittsburgh Posts:81,254 Points:3,252,645 Joined:Mar 2003	Message Posted: Jan 2, 2013 6:32:38 AM Ignore scoutmaster Report Abuse I'm not so sure it isn't a detriment to GB. While it is somewhat organized, it really serves no purpose. And in your actor analogy, if the actor tells the web site owner to cease and desist, he must.
kwzh Champion Author San Jose Posts:20,649 Points:3,683,360 Joined:Jul 2001	Message Posted: Jan 2, 2013 6:27:35 AM Ignore kwzh Report Abuse It's true that you can search on the category page, but this sometimes requires stepping through multiple pages, and also guessing which keyword to search for -- and some topic lines don't use any keyword appropriate to the suggestion. Indexing by concept can address this.
GoGoGoodyear Champion Author Los Angeles Posts:2,049 Points:507,105 Joined:Mar 2010	Message Posted: Jan 2, 2013 4:02:45 AM Ignore GoGoGoodyear Report Abuse Whether the external Suggestion Tracking List is of any use, it is being maintained at no expense or detriment to GB, and like any other link clicking on it is entirely optional for the reader. It is in that sense not unlike an independent website maintained by a fan of some movie actor for the purpose of gathering interesting info about that actor.
scoutmaster Champion Author Pittsburgh Posts:81,254 Points:3,252,645 Joined:Mar 2003	Message Posted: Jan 1, 2013 9:42:46 AM Ignore scoutmaster Report Abuse I'm not sure it needs to be presented in a better way. You can search any category page on any PC for a topic name. An external wiki that list every suggestion is not needed.
kwzh Champion Author San Jose Posts:20,649 Points:3,683,360 Joined:Jul 2001	Message Posted: Jan 1, 2013 4:09:11 AM Ignore kwzh Report Abuse Maybe you could help think of ways that the information could be provided in a less messy form, then.
scoutmaster Champion Author Pittsburgh Posts:81,254 Points:3,252,645 Joined:Mar 2003	Message Posted: Dec 31, 2012 5:02:33 PM Ignore scoutmaster Report Abuse There is no way GB will adopt that mess.
MARIOWERX Champion Author Vancouver Posts:15,927 Points:1,638,785 Joined:Oct 2008	Message Posted: Dec 31, 2012 4:22:17 PM Ignore MARIOWERX Report Abuse Scrapheap maybe you should suggest that GB adopt CK wiki site almost verbatim.
Scrapheap Champion Author Virginia Posts:14,546 Points:2,358,080 Joined:Sep 2006	Message Posted: Dec 31, 2012 4:07:03 PM Ignore Scrapheap Report Abuse Does anyone else remember back a number of years ago when the FAQ was an unofficial FAQ? It was not sanctioned by GasBuddy, resided on another site but was frequently referred to in the forums. I don't recall an outcry against that. Eventually, GasBuddy adopted the FAQ almost verbatim as their own.
scoutmaster Champion Author Pittsburgh Posts:81,254 Points:3,252,645 Joined:Mar 2003	Message Posted: Dec 31, 2012 12:13:33 PM Ignore scoutmaster Report Abuse kwzh, Do you really think someone new is gonna check that mass of stuff to see if something has been discussed? Do you? I know I don't. If I want to see if something has been discussed I look at this site, not some unauthorized site tossed together by a member. I'm in total agreement Mario. That topic should be locked and the link removed from each and every post it is listed. CampKohlers wiki mess is not endorsed by Gas Buddy.
kwzh Champion Author San Jose Posts:20,649 Points:3,683,360 Joined:Jul 2001	Message Posted: Dec 31, 2012 5:23:07 AM Ignore kwzh Report Abuse Sheesh. It's just an index, folks. It can be used to check whether a topic has already been discussed, in case you can't determine that using the limited existing tools. And since all it does is point back to the GasBuddy site, I can't imagine any reason why the mods would want CK to cease and desist.
MARIOWERX Champion Author Vancouver Posts:15,927 Points:1,638,785 Joined:Oct 2008	Message Posted: Dec 30, 2012 8:29:44 PM Ignore MARIOWERX Report Abuse No, it just seems like a hi-jacking of Gasbuddy own Suggest an improvement, in which moderaters are involved instead of some wiki ordained member who determines what is of value or what is not of value by posting to another site, and by smelling funny I think it should be locked and the originator of this "gasbuddy wiki suggestion site" should cease and desist promoting his or her own site as if it were endorsed by Gasbuddy.
scoutmaster Champion Author Pittsburgh Posts:81,254 Points:3,252,645 Joined:Mar 2003	Message Posted: Dec 30, 2012 8:18:38 PM Ignore scoutmaster Report Abuse The whole thing smells, CK. Your wiki is virtually useless. The same suggestion is in there multiple times. I for one have never used it and I'd bet most members don't use it. Plus, it isn't endorsed by Gas Buddy.
CampKohler Champion Author Sacramento Posts:9,457 Points:1,562,315 Joined:May 2007	Message Posted: Dec 30, 2012 7:40:09 PM Ignore CampKohler Report Abuse If a suggestion included in the STL "smells funny" (by which I assume you consider it not genuine or suitable in some manner), please post a response here and the matter will be give first priority. If anonymity is desired, you may respond by PM.
scoutmaster Champion Author Pittsburgh Posts:81,254 Points:3,252,645 Joined:Mar 2003	Message Posted: Dec 29, 2012 8:33:00 AM Ignore scoutmaster Report Abuse This should be added to the wiki that is not endorsed by Gas Buddy!
Scrapheap Champion Author Virginia Posts:14,546 Points:2,358,080 Joined:Sep 2006	Message Posted: Dec 29, 2012 12:14:33 AM Ignore Scrapheap Report Abuse As always, if you don't like it, you can ignore it.
maxstar Champion Author Chicago Posts:18,484 Points:809,545 Joined:Feb 2011	Message Posted: Dec 28, 2012 11:55:35 PM Ignore maxstar Report Abuse Great idea MARIOWERX, I think it should be added to the list.