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Author Topic: Is the Volt dead? Back to Topics
Shockjock1961

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Message Posted: Jul 6, 2013 3:49:40 PM

As the Volt sales number drops below both the Tesla Model S and the Nissan Leaf while continuing to loose even money for GM, is it proving itself to be a dead end product?
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04Ram1500
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Message Posted: Oct 20, 2014 8:36:50 AM

Yes
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Oct 20, 2014 8:26:29 AM

"Weaslespit saying so doesn't make it so."

Exactly my point! Thanks ;)
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Charlie_H
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Oct 20, 2014 7:27:46 AM

Weaslespit: "No facts were used - or at least shown - to reach your conclusion."

Weaslespit saying so doesn't make it so. "Their failure rates are noticeabely higher than Toyotas, the rates increase the further out you go, their build costs are higher and their unit revenue is generally less for similar cars." Those are all facts.
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Sugarshaneo7
Veteran Author Michigan

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Message Posted: Oct 19, 2014 1:55:50 PM

if it's dead, someone should recharge it
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reb4
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Message Posted: Oct 19, 2014 12:44:53 PM

Some information on Hyundai.. Addressing warranty




Will need to do some research, but do remember creasing about company commitment to quality and using warranty as staking reputation and spurring entire company ..
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Oct 19, 2014 12:23:47 PM

"I explained the factual basis for it"

Which is a nice, flowery way of saying you gave your unsubstantiated opinion, yet again.

"If you don't like it, explain why it's wrong."

No facts were used - or at least shown - to reach your conclusion.
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Charlie_H
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Oct 17, 2014 5:18:25 PM

Weaslespit: "LOL! Spin the definition however you need... "

I explained the factual basis for it. If you don't like it, explain why it's wrong.
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Oct 17, 2014 1:21:41 PM

"Unfortunately, your fanboi zealotry colors your perception so that you falsely assume that it is..."

Or, perhaps it is based on the context of your posts in this thread?
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Shockjock1961
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Message Posted: Oct 17, 2014 10:59:12 AM

I have a very clear understanding that my speculative statement was neither a flame nor a strawman.

Unfortunately, your fanboi zealotry colors your perception so that you falsely assume that it is...
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Oct 17, 2014 9:58:54 AM

"To put it in terms even a simpleton can understand....

It was neither therefore it cannot be both..."

The terms you are trying to use are clear, your understanding - not so much.
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Shockjock1961
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Oct 16, 2014 4:56:57 PM

To put it in terms even a simpleton can understand....

It was neither therefore it cannot be both...
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Oct 16, 2014 4:00:13 PM

"Non sequitur...

If it is neither how can it be both?"

Welp, since it isn't neither you are avoiding answering the question...
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Oct 16, 2014 3:59:28 PM

"Nope. It's an informed guess."

LOL! Spin the definition however you need...
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Charlie_H
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Oct 16, 2014 11:58:49 AM

Weaslespit: "They came out with that warranty to also spur their own employees."

GM can thank xenophobia for what market share they still have. Forty percent of auto buyers will not consider an Asian car. Only a small percentage of the market won't consider a German car.

Weaslespit: "Unsubstantiated opinion."

Nope. It's an informed guess. Their failure rates are noticeabely higher than Toyotas, the rates increase the further out you go, their build costs are higher and their unit revenue is generally less for similar cars. When you do the math, the conclusion is, "Uh-oh." And, of course, they do not offer a killer warranty. If it was zero-cost they certainly would. If it was low-cost, they'd probably do it strategically. That is circumstantial evidence.
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Shockjock1961
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Message Posted: Oct 16, 2014 11:42:22 AM

"So it cannot be both?"

Non sequitur...

If it is neither how can it be both?
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Oct 16, 2014 11:05:40 AM

"They came out with that warranty to also spur their own employees..."

Can you reference that in a link? Is their merit increase/bonus tied to their warranty performance, and does that warranty only include assembly errors made by the OEM or for any defect cause throughout the supply chain?
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Oct 16, 2014 11:04:03 AM

"Hmmm, asking a speculative question is a misrepresentation? Me thinks your hide is too thin..."

Yes - it is the very definition of spinning a comment but don't worry, you didn't' hurt my feelings any.

"My inquiry was neither a flame nor a "strawman" (funny how that changed)..."

So it cannot be both?
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Oct 16, 2014 11:02:43 AM

"Everyone I know who has a Hyundai - and most now have bought more than one - bought the car because of the warranty."

Exactly. As I said, it is a sales ploy. Hyundai needed deeper market penetration...

"GM is in the same position as the Hyundai of 2000 or so... their cars aren't trustworthy."

So says you - yet their sales remain high. So no, GM is not in the same position Hyundai was in.

"Unfortunately, the numbers I see tell us why GM doesn't offer the killer warranty - they can't afford to because the up-front charge they'd have to take against future warranty costs would make the cars unprofitable."

Unsubstantiated opinion.

"Of course, the killer warranty begs the question of whether or not the service provided will be any good. My experience with Chevrolet throws that into serious doubt. Another hurdle for GM to overcome."

Which is an entirely different problem.

"Is the dealer your ally or your enemy?"

The Chevy dealer burned me, so I go across the street to the GMC dealer (different ownership) and their service has been impeccable. The previous Chevy dealer we bought a car from also had great service (they are just further away), so we bought used Town&Country form them last year.
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Charlie_H
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Message Posted: Oct 16, 2014 10:56:58 AM

reb4: "They came out with that warranty to also spur their own employees..."

Thanks, reb4, I hadn't conidered that. Properly used, stretch goals can be powerful.
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reb4
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Message Posted: Oct 16, 2014 9:56:46 AM

Hyundai's warranty is an excellent example.




They came out with that warranty to also spur their own employees and showed a commitment to improving their vehicles in all areas...






[Edited by: reb4 at 10/16/2014 9:59:16 AM EST]
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Shockjock1961
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Message Posted: Oct 16, 2014 9:49:41 AM

"So, note how you took a comment by myself and tried to misrepresent it to suit your own agenda..."

Hmmm, asking a speculative question is a misrepresentation? Me thinks your hide is too thin... But then what else can you expect from a Volt Fanboi/Zealot?

My inquiry was neither a flame nor a "strawman" (funny how that changed)...



[Edited by: Shockjock1961 at 10/16/2014 9:52:13 AM EST]
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Charlie_H
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Message Posted: Oct 16, 2014 8:50:14 AM

Weaslespit: "A 'killer warranty' is nothing more than a marketing gimmick - how did it work for Chrysler? As long as the warranty duration meets the industry standard it is a non-issue. Being below the industry standard is the only negative aspect to the warranty topic."

Everyone I know who has a Hyundai - and most now have bought more than one - bought the car because of the warranty. Whether or not they were below industry standard wasn't the point... it made the relative reliability and risk of owning the car entirely moot. GM is in the same position as the Hyundai of 2000 or so... their cars aren't trustworthy.

And IF GM's cars are good enough, this "marketing gimmick" won't cost GM much because there won't be excessive repair charges.

Unfortunately, the numbers I see tell us why GM doesn't offer the killer warranty - they can't afford to because the up-front charge they'd have to take against future warranty costs would make the cars unprofitable.

Toyota doesn't offer a warranty beyond standard because they don't have to. People already have confidence in Toyotas and ware willing to pay good prices for used ones as a result.

Of course, the killer warranty begs the question of whether or not the service provided will be any good. My experience with Chevrolet throws that into serious doubt. Another hurdle for GM to overcome. Is the dealer your ally or your enemy?
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Weaslespit
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Message Posted: Oct 15, 2014 11:33:57 PM

"What I am saying is that "better than the crap they used to sell" is not "good enough" to wash away the memory of decades of said crap."

Which is also what I said;

"GM (Ford, Chrysler) certainly had a very arrogant attitude for decades that turned many people away from them, some for good. Definitely justified - I wouldn't deny that for a second."

"...it takes a long time for the stats to come around..."

True - and they have been. Perception takes even longer.

"GM's going to have to make their statement with a killer warranty. They're going to have to do what Hyundai did. Or they can continue to languish in perception and resale value."

A 'killer warranty' is nothing more than a marketing gimmick - how did it work for Chrysler? As long as the warranty duration meets the industry standard it is a non-issue. Being below the industry standard is the only negative aspect to the warranty topic.
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pt1KY
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Message Posted: Oct 15, 2014 5:53:28 PM

Yes
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Charlie_H
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Message Posted: Oct 15, 2014 5:29:28 PM

Weaslespit: "So anecdotal evidence is supposed to disprove what, exactly, regarding my statement that GM (and the rest of the industry) has made 'tremendous' strides in the last decade? You would really try to dispute, for example, that the Cruze is not a vastly better vehicle than the Cobalt or a Cavalier?"

That's not "anectdotal evidence," it's an "example" of the stats collected by TD, all of which, collectively, point to "not as good" and, more likely, "not nearly as good." Certainly, if an 8 year old Prius is more reliable than a 2 year old Volt, that's getting into "not nearly as good" territory. You're free to check out the rest. Or check other providers.

Nor did I say the Cruze, as an example, was not better than the Cobalt or Cavalier.

What I am saying is that "better than the crap they used to sell" is not "good enough" to wash away the memory of decades of said crap. GM needs a solid statement that they're competitive on reliability, that buyers who are in it for the long haul, or people who buy used (these are the folks that prop up resale values) have nothing to worry about when they buy a GM car. New or used, it will be just as good as the competition.

Even if they were just as good (there's no evidence of that), it takes a long time for the stats to come around and GM's going to have to make their statement with a killer warranty. They're going to have to do what Hyundai did. Or they can continue to languish in perception and resale value.


[Edited by: Charlie_H at 10/15/2014 5:32:53 PM EST]
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Weaslespit
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Message Posted: Oct 15, 2014 5:05:48 PM

"Strawman? It thought strawmen, were arguments, not a speculation..."

No, a strawman is a common type of argument and is an informal fallacy based on the misrepresentation of an opponent's argument.

So, note how you took a comment by myself and tried to misrepresent it to suit your own agenda...

;)

But then what else would you expect in a GM hater?
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Shockjock1961
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Message Posted: Oct 15, 2014 4:58:10 PM

"Because it is a simple strawman..."

Strawman? It thought strawmen, were arguments, not a speculation...

Sounds like you are indeed in denial...

But then what else would you expect in a Volt fanboi/zealot?

[Edited by: Shockjock1961 at 10/15/2014 4:58:51 PM EST]
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Awing1
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Message Posted: Oct 15, 2014 4:53:41 PM

No
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Weaslespit
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Message Posted: Oct 15, 2014 4:36:14 PM

"You wouldn't? Then why would you call speculation that this may be why 70% of the people who buy the Volt are not GM owners as being for the reasons you just admit, as being a flame?"

Because it is a simple strawman...
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Weaslespit
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Message Posted: Oct 15, 2014 4:31:24 PM

"By TD's reckoning, a 2012 or 2013 Volt is not as reliable as a 2004 Prius. The owner of one of those Volts is almost twice as likely to be heading in for repair service this year as that owner of that 2004 Prius."

So anecdotal evidence is supposed to disprove what, exactly, regarding my statement that GM (and the rest of the industry) has made 'tremendous' strides in the last decade? You would really try to dispute, for example, that the Cruze is not a vastly better vehicle than the Cobalt or a Cavalier?

Really, now...
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Shockjock1961
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Message Posted: Oct 15, 2014 4:30:41 PM

"In fact, I believe I have said as much in the past as well. GM (Ford, Chrysler) certainly had a very arrogant attitude for decades that turned many people away from them, some for good. Definitely justified - I wouldn't deny that for a second."

You wouldn't? Then why would you call speculation that this may be why 70% of the people who buy the Volt are not GM owners as being for the reasons you just admit, as being a flame?
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Oct 15, 2014 4:24:30 PM

"i hope so, need to get it where gasoline cars are back."

Where did they go?
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BigHorne1
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Message Posted: Oct 15, 2014 2:06:37 PM

i hope so, need to get it where gasoline cars are back. Get prices to two dollars a gallon and keep it there.
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Charlie_H
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Message Posted: Oct 15, 2014 1:42:57 PM

Weaslespit: "Not sure what that has to do with today's products, however, which are head-and-shoulders above what they used to produce (as are cars from most OEM's these days)."

Not only has GM failed to fix the perception problem, they still haven't got a leadership position by the numbers, either.

Until they do, GM reliability and resale are a depressive effect on sales and profits.

By TD's reckoning, a 2012 or 2013 Volt is not as reliable as a 2004 Prius. The owner of one of those Volts is almost twice as likely to be heading in for repair service this year as that owner of that 2004 Prius.

Several people (including me) called for a better GM warranty as a way of telling the market they could be confident of their GM cars. The problem with that is that GM must back up that warranty with excellent reliability or they'll lose their shirts. GM knows this and hasn't seen fit to make the warranty more meaningful.
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carinthuist
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Message Posted: Oct 15, 2014 12:37:57 PM

no seen one yesterday
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Weaslespit
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Message Posted: Oct 15, 2014 12:06:19 PM

"You can pretend GM's alienation of large swathes of the population didn't happen but that doesn't make the problem go away."

In fact, I believe I have said as much in the past as well. GM (Ford, Chrysler) certainly had a very arrogant attitude for decades that turned many people away from them, some for good. Definitely justified - I wouldn't deny that for a second.

Not sure what that has to do with today's products, however, which are head-and-shoulders above what they used to produce (as are cars from most OEM's these days).
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Charlie_H
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Message Posted: Oct 14, 2014 2:18:30 PM

shockjobk1961: "Could this be because actual GM owners have experienced first hand the crap GM has offered in the past and are unwilling to roll the dice again?"

Weaslespit: "*yawn* - more flaming."

You can pretend GM's alienation of large swathes of the population didn't happen but that doesn't make the problem go away.

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Charlie_H
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Message Posted: Oct 14, 2014 2:16:37 PM

rkt_wgn: "I am sure that most of the complainers about the credit in this forum, don't pay enough taxes to take advantage of the $7500.00 credit on the income tax."

Don't bet anything you don't want to lose.

rkt_wgn: "One of the problems some of the complainers have with the Volt, is that it only has 4 passenger seating. My Volt almost NEVER has over two people in it at a time."

Most of the time, my commuter car has just one on board - me. Most of the cars out on the highway have empty seats. Most pickup trucks rattle by empty except for the diver

Now, tell me why both GM's and Ford's two-seat commuter car experiments failed.
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luvmyburgi
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Message Posted: Oct 14, 2014 1:35:54 PM

No
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Oct 14, 2014 1:07:36 PM

"Veiled insults from a Volt fanboi.

Why am I not surprised..."

Better ;)
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Shockjock1961
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Message Posted: Oct 14, 2014 12:43:17 PM

You are right. I'll change that statement...

Veiled insults from a Volt fanboi.

Why am I not surprised...

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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Oct 14, 2014 11:37:16 AM

"Veiled insults from a GM fanboi."

What, exactly, would you call the term 'fanboi'? Just curious...

Not many 'fanboi's' who agree with negative criticism regarding the subject of their 'fanboiism' and respect/appreciate makes models from other OEM's as well.

But, run with your stereotype ;)
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pilotdlh
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Message Posted: Oct 14, 2014 11:34:56 AM

I'm starting to see more of them around here.
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Shockjock1961
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Message Posted: Oct 14, 2014 11:32:16 AM

Veiled insults from a GM fanboi.

Why am I not surprised...
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Oct 14, 2014 11:30:15 AM

"Actually, it was simple speculation..."

'Simple', for sure - but not based on 'difficulty' of said 'speculation'...
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rkt wgn
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Message Posted: Oct 14, 2014 11:27:19 AM

I am sure that most of the complainers about the credit in this forum, don't pay enough taxes to take advantage of the $7500.00 credit on the income tax. So what do they do, but chastise GM and the IRS. Got to give someone heck for their inability to make enough income, to pay that much in tax.
A person has to pay that much in tax to be able to claim it as a credit. The credit a person gets from buying the car, is what they originally paid in excess tax. The complainers did not pay one cent of the $7500.00 in tax.

The Volt is not the only vehicle that qualifies for the some kind of Credit.
Tesla does, Toyota does, Honda, in fact almost every EV, PHEV, auto manufacturer gets some kind of credit.

The Volt is perhaps one of the only cars that has not had a recall. Over 90% of the owners, would buy another one. It is a fantastic car.
One of the problems some of the complainers have with the Volt, is that it only has 4 passenger seating. My Volt almost NEVER has over two people in it at a time. As far as trunk space, if I need more room, I just drop the seats down, and have all kinds of room.
It is by far the best looking one of the PHEV's, gets great mileage, ride is fantastic, fit and finish is great, drives very good, ride is also very good.

So I guess I gave the complainers something to Bi--h about. Have at it guys, give me heck!!! :)

P.S. It is not dead!!!
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Shockjock1961
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Message Posted: Oct 14, 2014 10:14:29 AM

"*yawn* - more flaming"

Actually, it was simple speculation...
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Weaslespit
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Message Posted: Oct 14, 2014 9:52:27 AM

"Could this be because actual GM owners have experienced first hand the crap GM has offered in the past and are unwilling to roll the dice again?"

*yawn* - more flaming.

"Knowing GM products, the two modes are most likely "fail" and "recall.""

Lol, that was pretty good. The Tahoe hybrid was a big fail...
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hyeglenn
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Message Posted: Oct 14, 2014 9:50:57 AM

No, just lower the price and people will buy it.
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Shockjock1961
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Oct 14, 2014 9:36:28 AM

"GM said nearly 70 percent of buyers who trade in another vehicle for a Volt are coming out of non-GM brands"

Could this be because actual GM owners have experienced first hand the crap GM has offered in the past and are unwilling to roll the dice again?
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