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Author Topic: Is the Volt dead? Back to Topics
Shockjock1961

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Illinois

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Message Posted: Jul 6, 2013 3:49:40 PM

As the Volt sales number drops below both the Tesla Model S and the Nissan Leaf while continuing to loose even money for GM, is it proving itself to be a dead end product?
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rkt wgn
Champion Author St. Louis

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Message Posted: Nov 27, 2014 1:32:32 AM

Still selling !
2016 coming out in a couple months.
Will do great, just watch! :)
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BigHorne1
Champion Author Missouri

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Message Posted: Nov 26, 2014 2:16:10 PM

i hope so, need to get back the geo line back with the prices they use to be instead of the line cheverolet has and the price tag which is to much.

Since the spark, does not get the gas mileage of the geo metro's or even the geo storm's in town or on the freeway truly, not what is estimated
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Shockjock1961
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Nov 26, 2014 1:41:35 PM

"The should be dead car of the day is the Toyota, Scion xD. With sales of just 472 units in October, its sales amounted to only 32.8% of Volt sales."

Did it cost $1.2 billion to develop the scion,like the Volt did? Does the Scion lose Toyota money on each and every scion sold like the Volt looses money for GM? DOes the Scion receive $7500 worth of taxpayer funded bribes/handouts for each one sold, like the Volt does?

" the Volt is not only not dead, but it is thriving"

Only a delusional fan-boi would consider an Overly expensive compact with miniscule and declining sales despite being sold for a loss and being the recipient of $7500 worht of taxpayer handouts as being "thriving"...

Keep polishing that turd detfan...
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Charlie_H
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Nov 26, 2014 1:30:27 PM

You're still avoiding the point to continue on your diatribe over the subsidy that is available to all manufacturers...

The subsidy is put to good use by other manufacturers. Leaf sales continue to increase. The Tesla, which should have severely limited appeal at $80-120K per copy, sells remarkably well for a car at that price point. Tesla made good use of the subsidy to get vehicle manufacturing operations launched with a car that sells very nearly profitably. That's remarkable for such a young manufacturer.

GM, on the other hand, the "old pro" at the car business... They made stupid mistakes in development and ended up with a car that's been rejected worldwide, barely sells at luxury car quantities in spite of the Chevy nameplate and "We lose money on every one." Their second act was to build a car even less attractive in the market than the Volt - the ELR. Talk about "DCOTD." The ELR will be a permanent exhibit in the DCOTD Museum.
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Charlie_H
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Nov 26, 2014 1:16:08 PM

detfan: "With the Volt dominating its segment in sales, pacing ahead of Toyota Prius sales comparing each cars initial years of sales, the OP really has it wrong."

I bet GM will eventually figure out how to beat the 1999 Corolla, too.

detfan: "In actuality, ALL FIVE Scion models sell fewer units than the Volt."

Worldwide? Guess again. It's a global industry. The fact is, Toyota makes world cars that appeal around the world. GM... they've given up on selling the Volt outside the US and Canada. Well, they didn't exactly give up, those other markets let GM know the car wasn't really wanted.
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detfan
Champion Author Tallahassee

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Message Posted: Nov 26, 2014 11:05:04 AM

The should be dead car of the day is the Toyota, Scion xD. With sales of just 472 units in October, its sales amounted to only 32.8% of Volt sales.

With the Volt dominating its segment in sales, pacing ahead of Toyota Prius sales comparing each cars initial years of sales, the OP really has it wrong.

In actuality, ALL FIVE Scion models sell fewer units than the Volt.

So, of course the Volt is not only not dead, but it is thriving, and the creator of this board, is a known anti GM GB member, so nobody should be surprised at the negative spin.
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Nov 26, 2014 8:14:56 AM

"It's not semantics. Congress authorized $7500 so that the cars would sell well and the manufacturers wouldn't have to take a loss. If GM had to cut price on that car by another $7500 to get them to move in these pitiful quantities, their losses would be even more severe than they are."

You're still avoiding the point to continue on your diatribe over the subsidy that is available to all manufacturers...

Given the 'few' that they have sold from the haters' perspective, their losses wouldn't have been so severe. No?
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russells350
Champion Author Montreal

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Message Posted: Nov 26, 2014 7:26:11 AM

yes
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rkt wgn
Champion Author St. Louis

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Message Posted: Nov 26, 2014 1:05:37 AM

Selling more every day!!!
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Alexi7
All-Star Author Ohio

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Message Posted: Nov 26, 2014 12:22:53 AM

The U.S. government is correct in supporting the fledgling hybrid auto sector. If our government had stopped the "dumping" of Chinese-made solar panels, that industry wouldn't have struggled and often failed.
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Charlie_H
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Nov 25, 2014 6:11:59 PM

Weaslsepit: "Which ignores the point made to argue over semantics in an attempt at yet another deflection."

It's not semantics. Congress authorized $7500 so that the cars would sell well and the manufacturers wouldn't have to take a loss. If GM had to cut price on that car by another $7500 to get them to move in these pitiful quantities, their losses would be even more severe than they are.

That subsidy, $7500 is insanely generous. The most one could get on a hybrid, the Ford hybrid, for some reason, was $3500. The Prius initially got about a $600 tax consideration (it was a $2K deduction, not a credit, so the tax effect was a product of the dduction times the bracket) and managed to ramp to 10K sales/month in 2004, a little over 3 years after its introduction to the US.

Fast-forward 10 years and add $6900 to the mix and the Volt sells, at a loss, in nearly negligible quantities after almost 4 years on the market.

GM did a crap job. They ignored what was important about selling hybrids (and not for the first time) and let El Lutzbo have his little ego trip.

Well, the fruits of their labors is a laughingstock that's poorly defended by people, such as detfan, who have repeatedly demonstrated they haven't a clue how the auto market works but have a bizarre blind faith in a proven loser.
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Nov 25, 2014 4:14:59 PM

"If GM supplies a rebate of or cuts price by $7500, that's a discount. If the Feds supply a $7500 tax credit, that's a subsidy."

Which ignores the point made to argue over semantics in an attempt at yet another deflection.
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Shockjock1961
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Nov 25, 2014 3:59:30 PM

"You are. You were pointing out that it is #2 in a 'dead segment', yet when shown that it is beating plenty of vehicles from traditional segments, the conversation shifts to incentives"

The conversation never shifted away from taxpayer funded bribes/handouts, miniscule and dropping sales, or the fact that each sale of the Volt is a monetary loss for GM, all of which (including the incredibly high price for a compact car)is what makes the Volt a non-viable automobile...
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Charlie_H
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Nov 25, 2014 2:22:35 PM

Weaslespit: "A discount is a discount, regardless of where that discount originates. A convenient fact some here choose to overlook."

If GM supplies a rebate of or cuts price by $7500, that's a discount. If the Feds supply a $7500 tax credit, that's a subsidy.
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Nov 25, 2014 1:08:45 PM

"Are these other vehicles being sold at a loss or receiving $7500 taxpayer funded bribe/handout per vehicle sold?"

A discount is a discount, regardless of where that discount originates. A convenient fact some here choose to overlook.

"I'm not."

You are. You were pointing out that it is #2 in a 'dead segment', yet when shown that it is beating plenty of vehicles from traditional segments, the conversation shifts to incentives.

I wonder why that is?
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Shockjock1961
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Nov 25, 2014 1:02:37 PM

"Why are you moving the goalposts"

I'm not. I've always stated that the Volt is nonviable because it's an overly expensive compact car who's sales are absolutely dismal and declining despite receiving a huge $7500 taxpayer funded bribe/handout and losing money for GM for each Volt sold...
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Shockjock1961
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Nov 25, 2014 12:57:03 PM

"All vehicles come at a discount"

Are these other vehicles being sold at a loss or receiving $7500 taxpayer funded bribe/handout per vehicle sold?
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Nov 25, 2014 12:56:01 PM

"Are these other vehicles being sold at a loss or receiving $7500 taxpayer funded bribe/handout per vehicle sold?"

All vehicles come at a discount - standard ICE vehicles are getting a boost due to the fall in gas prices. Why do some here only focus on variables that allow them to continue with their narrative?

Why are you moving the goalposts?
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Shockjock1961
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Nov 25, 2014 12:17:21 PM

"And also leading a vast majority of vehicles in other, standard segments"

Are these other vehicles being sold at a loss or receiving $7500 taxpayer funded bribe/handout per vehicle sold?

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Charlie_H
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Nov 25, 2014 12:13:40 PM

Weaslespit, overlooking the $7500 in taxpayer cash lavished on each and every Volt buyer: "And also leading a vast majority of vehicles in other, standard segments"

Are you going for an honorary DetFan award? We could call them "the DetFies."

Those other segments don't involve taxpayer funding of each sale. The cars in them have to stand on their own and contribute profits or otherwise support the organization without help.
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Charlie_H
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Nov 25, 2014 12:10:44 PM

When evaluating the success or failure of a car, it's worthwhile to consider what it has done for the careers of those involved.

The Prius' Chief Engineer, Taheshi Uchiyamada, became Chairman of Toyota.

Over at GM:
- bob Lutz, El Lutzbo, Volt Champion, E-Visionary, GM Car Czar and the CEO who ushered Exide into Chapter 11 - Gone before the first Volt careened off the production line. Almost certainly on his way to a hat trick in bankruptcies at Via Motors.
- Frank Weber, Lead Engineer - Abandoned GM before Volt launch. Now at BMW. Type his name into Google and this Frank Weber isn't in the first page of "Frank Weber" entries returned.
- Andrew Farah, Chief Engineer - Still at GM but no one has heard from him in years.
- Tony ("rhymes with kilowatts") Posawatz - Gone to Fisker and helped euthanize it. Clinging to the industry elsewhere.
- John Lauckner, the Father of the Volt - Still at GM, as CTO, but his principal job is to downsize GM's own R&D (mission accomplished).
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Nov 25, 2014 11:56:50 AM

"#2 in an insignificant segment."

And also leading a vast majority of vehicles in other, standard segments - the perspective which detfan has been trying to enlighten some haters with.
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Shockjock1961
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Message Posted: Nov 25, 2014 11:16:34 AM

"It is very laughable that some posters feel the Chevy Volt should be dead, when it is leading its segment in sales"

A $1.2 Billion investment to produce a car that sells at a loss in miniscule numbers despite being the recipient of a $7500 taxpayer funded bribe/handout...

DOA...

Keep trying to shine that turd detfan....
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Shockjock1961
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Nov 25, 2014 11:13:37 AM

"Strange, since the Volt is #2 in the 'pluggable' segment alone..."

#2 in an insignificant segment.

You've just proven his point...
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Nov 25, 2014 10:55:43 AM

"No other car has done so little in spite of so much help."

Strange, since the Volt is #2 in the 'pluggable' segment alone...
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Charlie_H
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Nov 25, 2014 9:50:40 AM

detfan ... nominates another Dead Car Of The Day...

When you nominate a "DCOTD" that gets $7500 from the taxpayer and isn't a GM car, you let us know.

Until then, the Volt - or its misbegotten sibling, the ELR - is The Reigning Queen of the "Dead Car" segment. No other car has done so little in spite of so much help.
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detfan
Champion Author Tallahassee

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Message Posted: Nov 25, 2014 9:22:48 AM

The should be dead car of the day is the Nissan Quest Minivan. With sales of just 370 units in October, Nissan should just pull the plug on it(he-he-he). With Chrysler, Honda, and Toyota selling several thousand of their minivans a month, it just doesn't make sense to keep it in production. It's sales are just 26% of the sales of the Chevy Volt.

It is very laughable that some posters feel the Chevy Volt should be dead, when it is leading its segment in sales, and is outselling in its first 6 years, what the Toyota Prius sold in its first six years.
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cujo1977
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Message Posted: Nov 25, 2014 8:57:46 AM

Y
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Nov 25, 2014 8:46:05 AM

"but it's not really edible."

Let me know when you get that fork stuck in the hood - or even a tire...

;)
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JKazakus
All-Star Author Indiana

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Message Posted: Nov 25, 2014 8:05:29 AM

you can stick a fork in it, but it's not really edible.
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Nov 24, 2014 9:25:44 AM

Aw, looks like somebodyhas a case of 'The Mondays'...

[Edited by: Weaslespit at 11/24/2014 9:27:10 AM EST]
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jorobins538
Champion Author Chicago

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Message Posted: Nov 24, 2014 9:24:31 AM

hang on little Volt!
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Charlie_H
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Nov 24, 2014 9:21:00 AM

Weaslespit: ... takes a quote entirely out of context...

So lame...
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Nov 24, 2014 9:14:25 AM

"It's a Prius with a giant battery pack..."

In other words, a pretty good car ;)
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Shockjock1961
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Nov 24, 2014 9:10:32 AM

"With the Volt selling in higher numbers than any of its competitors"

The Volt is selling more then next to nothing? How is that something to crow about?

"This should be celebrated"

Detfan, no matter how much you try to polish that turd, in the end, what you have in hand is still nothing more then a pile of crap...
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Charlie_H
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Nov 24, 2014 9:09:28 AM

detfan:"With the Volt selling in higher numbers than any of its competitors, with twice the electric range of the next closest competitor, and first 6 year sales higher then the Toyota Prius, and with technology well beyond anything Toyota is currently offering(several advances that are patented), the Chevy Volt stands as a beacon for American exceptionality, and ingenuity."

It's a Prius with a giant battery pack, except not as good and which loses money. The most American thing about it is the crude iron block enine, which Toyota wouldn't have put in a 1997 Corolla. The batteries are Korean, the underlying platform was designed in Korea and GM had to farm the hybrid drive unit out to Aisin because they have insufficient expertise to build their own.

GM had negligible success selling these OUS and has withdrawn them. It only sells to American GM FanBois and American EV Zealots and even that requires a huge per-car bribe.

Congratulations to "American exceptionality." If that's the best we can do, we might as well close up shop and turn off the lights.
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badbobKY
All-Star Author Lexington

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Message Posted: Nov 24, 2014 8:00:28 AM

no
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detfan
Champion Author Tallahassee

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Message Posted: Nov 24, 2014 7:59:18 AM

Todays should be dead car is the Volvo S80, which managed to sell 126 units in October, just 9% of October sales for the Volt.

With the Volt selling in higher numbers than any of its competitors, with twice the electric range of the next closest competitor, and first 6 year sales higher then the Toyota Prius, and with technology well beyond anything Toyota is currently offering(several advances that are patented), the Chevy Volt stands as a beacon for American exceptionality, and ingenuity.

This should be celebrated, not poo pood by the import elite hater posters that reside within GasBuddy.
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GLM4205
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Message Posted: Nov 22, 2014 3:57:34 PM

What??
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Shockjock1961
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Nov 22, 2014 3:40:24 PM

" the future remains bright for America's technological marvel"

Hybrid cars have been around for years. How is one with a bigger battery, and a price tag to match, a "technological marvel"?

Keep trying to polish that expensive turd detfan...
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Charlie_H
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Nov 22, 2014 1:18:56 PM

detfan: "The should be dead car of the day is the VW EOS. The EOS mustered up just 202 sales in October, just 14 percent of the sales of the segment leading Chevy Volt."

Volkswagen isn't run by slow learners; the EOS is being taken out of production.

detfan: "... segment leading Chevy Volt..."

What segment is that? The please-bribe-me-to-buy-your-car segment? The kept-afloat-by-taxpayer-largesse segment? The just-you-wait-for-the-next-version segment? The Toyota-ought-to-be-shaking-in-their-boots-but-why-aren't-they segment? The obvious-mistakes-in-development segment?
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Shockjock1961
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Nov 22, 2014 10:06:34 AM

Keep trying to shine that turd detfan....
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detfan
Champion Author Tallahassee

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Message Posted: Nov 22, 2014 7:47:07 AM

The should be dead car of the day is the VW EOS. The EOS mustered up just 202 sales in October, just 14 percent of the sales of the segment leading Chevy Volt.

With twice the electric range of its nearest competitor in its segment, and its top selling, competitively priced attributes, and the next gen Volt being revealed in less than 2 moths, the future remains bright for America's technological marvel.
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Charlie_H
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Nov 21, 2014 2:22:56 PM

Weaslespit: "So I wouldn't consider it the right question at all - only the same one that you keep asking (which we don't know the answer to yet) regarding if GM's development money was wasted or not."

I disagree. The answer is that it was wasted. GM gets no profit and no strategic advantage for their money. Let's examine the strategic advantages:

- Did they get and hold a commanding market share? No. If we consider PHEVs only, the Ford and Toyota products get decent share, in spite of their more limited range. If we consider pluggables as a whole, the picture is even worse.

- Did they manage to put up a significant barrier to entry? No.

- Did they get some kind of halo effect? No. I don't personally think halos have any value, anyway. The Corvette certainly didn't stave off bankruptcy.

As a bonus, it's as much of a PR black eye as anything they've ever done. Even the EV-1 debacle wasn't as big of a deal because only EV Zealots cared about that and even that didn't prevent many of those EV Zealots considering the Volt for purchase. In fact, at this point, the only market segment that loves the Volt IS the EV Zealot segment. Even the Leaf gets more consideration, principally because of its lower price.

Remember, they put up $1.2 billion for this and sustained more losses since. Cap-Ex doesn't grow on trees. That's $1.2 billion they didn't put into other projects that could have had a much bigger impact. The Malibu could use a $few hundred million in help, for sure. When you consider whether or not the money was wasted in terms of the alternative investments, yes, it was definitely wasted.
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Charlie_H
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Nov 21, 2014 2:11:59 PM

Weaslespit: "I don't agree with anybody changing the definition to narrow the focus as pure EV's do in fact compete directly with plug-in hybrids."

That's why I'm using the term "pluggable" more often.

There are market distinctions but there's definitely a lot of overlap between BEV/PHEV intenders.
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Charlie_H
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Nov 21, 2014 2:10:33 PM

detfan: "The Azera just sucks in sales."

Is it helping profitability? That's the question, not "what are the sales?" Plenty of low-volume cars do what's profitable or strategically required of them. I'll be concerned about the Azera when I hear their CEO say, "We lose money on every one!"

detfan: "The Chevy Volt has been eeking out a profit over the last two years,"

That's a complete fantasy. It was before the $5K price cut that Akerson announced, "We lose money on every one." Nothing has changed, except they gave up another $5K in revenue. It's not profitable and there's no hard evidence that the next Volt will be profitable, either.

And they'll need to boost units sold, if they want to get scale advantages like the Prius... or even the Leaf. Since it's not available worldwide, that's going to be extra difficult for the Volt.

Profitability is not in its immediate future.

By the way, you've written "eeked" often enough that it's clear it's not a typo... That is not how the word is spelled.
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Nov 21, 2014 2:08:54 PM

"So is this where Weaslespit comes in and derides detfan for placing the Volt and EV's into seperate segments?"

It doesn't matter who posts it, I don't agree with anybody changing the definition to narrow the focus as pure EV's do in fact compete directly with plug-in hybrids.
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Nov 21, 2014 2:06:27 PM

"Some of Shock's comparisons might not be dead on but, as you can see, he asks the right questions."

Regarding the Azera? They might not have spent as much as GM did with the Volt, but it wasn't $0 either... and it truly seems to be dead, unlike the Volt.

So I wouldn't consider it the right question at all - only the same one that you keep asking (which we don't know the answer to yet) regarding if GM's development money was wasted or not.
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Charlie_H
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Nov 21, 2014 2:03:01 PM

detfan: "I do not concern myself with the Leaf, because the Chevy Spark, which is in the same segment, not the Chevy Volt, is only sold in the 3 western states."

GM is brilliant. BEVs can actually be sold (see, for example, The Nissan Leaf) but GM won't sell them. They'd rather sell the Volt poorly (bonus: "We lose money on every one!") than admit it was a mistake.

Not that the Spark is exactly lighting California on fire... The thing is tiny, especially compared to the Leaf and they're selling very few.

Their advanced tech program is a complete mess. And after a decade of talking up their Fuel Cell program, Toyota and others will beat them to market with production cars. No surprise there.

Maybe GM should stop "investing" in executive bonuses and start investing in research and development.
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Shockjock1961
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Nov 21, 2014 1:06:05 PM

"I do not concern myself with the Leaf, because the Chevy Spark, which is in the same segment, not the Chevy Volt"

So is this where Weaslespit comes in and derides detfan for placing the Volt and EV's into seperate segments?
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