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Author Topic: Is the Volt dead? Back to Topics
Shockjock1961

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Message Posted: Jul 6, 2013 3:49:40 PM

As the Volt sales number drops below both the Tesla Model S and the Nissan Leaf while continuing to loose even money for GM, is it proving itself to be a dead end product?
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carinthuist
Champion Author San Francisco

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Message Posted: Sep 16, 2014 1:28:19 PM

no
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MeTaBall
Champion Author Maryland

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Message Posted: Sep 16, 2014 1:12:24 PM

battery drain
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Charlie_H
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Sep 4, 2014 11:52:19 PM

The Japanee gotta eat. And I get a better car. GM knows what it can do about that.
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SoylentGrain
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Sep 4, 2014 11:28:20 PM

"Hah. No more than I am expanding said pie. My choice of car just doesn't come with an extra $7500 in tax credits. Tough luck, that."

BS. Billions in tax revenue goes to Japan each year. That's what your choice does.
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Charlie_H
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Sep 4, 2014 6:46:29 PM

SoylentGrain: "My guess is most Volt owners are doing their part to expand the pie for you Charlie H."

Hah. No more than I am expanding said pie. My choice of car just doesn't come with an extra $7500 in tax credits. Tough luck, that. Considering GM was telling us the average Volt owner income was $175K, I'm glad the money is going to people in such dire straits. Not.
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SoylentGrain
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Sep 4, 2014 5:52:44 PM

"Now, when do I get a tax break that supports my "likes?" "

Well, first, you got to have a job or produce something of value that results in income, and make over $50,000 or so a year. Then, the sky's the limit for tax breaks: mortgage interest deductions, dependent credits,Earned Income Tax Credit, Dependent Care Credit, retirement savings accounts, work related expenses. These total far more than any tax credit for the Volt (and Prius).

My guess is most Volt owners are doing their part to expand the pie for you Charlie H.
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Sep 4, 2014 3:33:19 PM

"That's because reality and I are in good alignment."

I am 100% certain that your reality lines up quite neatly with your opinions. Of that there is no doubt.



[Edited by: Weaslespit at 9/4/2014 3:33:56 PM EST]
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Charlie_H
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Sep 4, 2014 2:47:52 PM

Charlie_H: "Not at all; a computation based on the delta price and delta volume. Classic economic theory. It leads me to state, very confidently, that Volt sales would tank without that tax credit."

Of course, classic economic theory isn't really required. Common sense would tell anyone - except a GM FanBoi - that the loss of a $7500 tax credit would slash sales.

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Charlie_H
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Sep 4, 2014 1:34:53 PM

Charlie_H: "The demand for the Volt is extremely elastic."

SoylentGrain: "Another assumption in you mind."

Not at all; a computation based on the delta price and delta volume. Classic economic theory. It leads me to state, very confidently, that Volt sales would tank without that tax credit.

SoylentGrain: "Using that logic, it doesn't matter what any one person does because, one person is so insignificant. regardless, I don't drive cars that run only on conventional gasoline."

I'd say, "do the math," but I've lost all hope that you can actually do any math.

At $7500 and 160mpg, it costs the US Treasury about $3.50 to avoid one gallon of gasoline use by subsidizing Volt ownership (I'm very generously assuming Volt will routinely last to 150K miles, an iffy assumption for a GM car). If one includes the electricity consumed and the extra bucks the owner paid, it costs Treasury and the owner about $6.50 to avoid that one gallon of gasoline used. Oops... forgot the premium gas penalty...

That's ridiculously inefficient, whether it's one person or many...

SoylentGrain: "Besides, all the Volt owners driving around " with technology that's not ready for prime time" really like their cars."

Awesome. I'm glad we are able to help support the "likes" of the relatively well-to-do EV Zealots that have bought a Volt. Now, when do I get a tax break that supports my "likes?"
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SoylentGrain
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Sep 4, 2014 1:28:56 PM

"That's because reality and I are in good alignment."

I bet you had plenty of imaginary friends growing up.
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Charlie_H
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Sep 4, 2014 1:20:26 PM

SoylentGrain: "The world according to Charlie H."

Weaslespit: "As always, Soylent."

That's because reality and I are in good alignment.

Weaslespit: "it would surprise me to find out that he is not linked to them in some way."

Aside from vehicle ownership? No. And the money saved goes into buying shares in the best American companies. Mostly, in fact, in companies that are improving our balance of trade.
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Sep 4, 2014 12:00:20 PM

"The world according to Charlie H."

As always, Soylent.

What other response would you expect from such a staunch Toyota fanboy? Given the ferocity with which he attacks GM and defends Toyota, it would surprise me to find out that he is not linked to them in some way.

I am thinking he maintains the 'build-your-own Toyota' website ;)
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SoylentGrain
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Sep 4, 2014 11:14:52 AM

The world according to Charlie H.
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Charlie_H
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Sep 4, 2014 11:07:37 AM

SoylentGrain: "Because, it produces tax revenue for the state of Michigan. Exactly my point. By making cars in Michigan, by a Michigan based company State and Federal tax revenue is generated."

Oh, please. Do the math, for once. $7500 off becomes $1-2K in direct labor, which is then taxed at something like 30% and then the losses reduce GM's bottom line and the net tax revenue is pretty much zilch. Nver mind that GM is mining the Detroit area and Michigan for tax breaks whenever they invest in a plant ("You wouln't want us to go to Mexico, would you?"). The economic activity to get the parts to the shop is spread around and a lot of it is overseas.

Even if it was true that it meant something to Michigan, why should Minnesota or any other state be subsidizing Michigan indirectly through GM?

SoylentGrain: "Only in your mind. You babble on and on and on about a few million dollars in tax credits, then, buy a car from a company predominately owned interests in Japan. You ought to be concerned about the billions flowing to Japan rather than the few million to US citizens."

Oh, I'm very concerned about that. Of course, Toyota's margin is something like 8%, so 92% of a US-produced Toyota is contained within the US. About 2/3 of Toyota's US sales are, in fact, US produced. This includes fabricating engines and transmissions. The US content of many Toyotas is hgher than many GM cars.

But, still this leaves the profits to go back to Japan and much of the revenue from Lexuses and Priuses. Now, some of those get recycled into dividends that come back to the US-owned shares.

The bigger question, of course, is why people buy these Toyotas in the first place. I have a strong domestic preference... Why am I not buying Toyotas? The answer is simple, Toyota builds a better car at a good price. Millions of US customers have discovered this. The cure for this "problem" is equally simple... GM must build even beter cars. Latest stats say they still aren't doing that. One of GM's most reliable cars is the Volt and a 1 year old Volt still goes to the dealer for service about as often as a ten year old Prius.

Painful experience has taught me and many others that it's not in one's economic interest to buy a GM car. I can avoid trouble, lost time and save money by buying a Toyota.

If GM wants more business, they're going to have to earn it.
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SoylentGrain
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Sep 4, 2014 10:32:45 AM

"Well, if the tax credit doesn't accomplish anything, then one is left to wonder why manufacturers lobbied for it and why the Michigan Congressional delegation led the charge for it?"

Because, it produces tax revenue for the state of Michigan. Exactly my point. By making cars in Michigan, by a Michigan based company State and Federal tax revenue is generated.

"The demand for the Volt is extremely elastic."

Another assumption in you mind.

"Nope. It's a fact. $7500 off someone's tax bill is added right onto the deficit side of the budget. To believe otherwise is wishful thinking."

Only in your mind. You babble on and on and on about a few million dollars in tax credits, then, buy a car from a company predominately owned interests in Japan. You ought to be concerned about the billions flowing to Japan rather than the few million to US citizens.

"Building unprofitable cars with technology that's not ready for prime time does not improve the economy and the fuel use avoided is so insignificant that it doesn't help our balance of trade. "

Using that logic, it doesn't matter what any one person does because, one person is so insignificant. regardless, I don't drive cars that run only on conventional gasoline. Besides, all the Volt owners driving around " with technology that's not ready for prime time" really like their cars.



[Edited by: SoylentGrain at 9/4/2014 10:35:22 AM EST]
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Charlie_H
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Sep 4, 2014 10:01:58 AM

SoylentGrain: "Just because you claim the reason Bolts sell is because of a tax credit, does not make it a fact."

Well, if the tax credit doesn't accomplish anything, then one is left to wonder why manufacturers lobbied for it and why the Michigan Congressional delegation led the charge for it?

Just another way of providing free money for the wealthy?

SoylentGrain: "We leased the car because we like it, just like almost every other Volt owner on the planet."

First, just in case you hadn't noticed, the tax credit is used to reduce the basis for the lease, so you are benefitting from the tax credit, even if it's not on your 1040.

Second, without the tax credit, the car would still sell to some, just in much, much smaller numbers. I've never claimed it wouldn't sell at all, just that what sales it does get are due in large part to the subsidy. There are EV Zealots and even some GM FanBois whould buy this car without the subsidy, even if it was $100K. Even with the subsidy, at the original price of about $41, the net price still put it into "Zealot" territory.

The demand for the Volt is extremely elastic. Subvented lease deals from GM, such as those offered in 2012 and 2013, goosed sales tremendously. You can use that information to determine that Volt sales would probably decline by about 50% without the tax credit.

SoylentGrain: "To claim a tax credit for a Volt or even a Prius costs someone else money is a moronically simplistic argument."

Nope. It's a fact. $7500 off someone's tax bill is added right onto the deficit side of the budget. To believe otherwise is wishful thinking.

SoylentGrain: "If the IRS allows a tax credit for a vehicle, there is a corresponding affect on income elsewhere."

Not hardly. Building unprofitable cars with technology that's not ready for prime time does not improve the economy and the fuel use avoided is so insignificant that it doesn't help our balance of trade.
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reb4
Champion Author Chicago

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Message Posted: Sep 4, 2014 9:32:03 AM

More DATA: Plug-In Electric Car Sales In Aug: All-Time Leaf High, Volt Best In 12 Months

RKT, your title does not match the article... by the way...This was a common issue that detfan .... struggled with... if my memory serves me correctly... and he was in a tiff with the gb mods because he didn't like to be corrected.... I'm sure you won't do that though....



[Edited by: reb4 at 9/4/2014 9:33:05 AM EST]
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Sep 4, 2014 9:10:49 AM

"It's obvious you don't. Just because you claim the reason Bolts sell is because of a tax credit, does not make it a fact. A tax credit would have been one of the last reasons we acquired a Volt. We leased the car because we like it, just like almost every other Volt owner on the planet."

Stop with this 'reality' before you accidentally make a fanboy's head explode!

They just wanna hate - they don't care how much truth is in their comments.
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Sep 4, 2014 9:07:44 AM

Wow - 818 PIP's sold in Aug, a decline of 40% from the previous month and a 70% fall-off from May. Ouch.

The Volt, meanwhile, continues to steadily plug along... (since some were comparing month-to-month for the Volt trying to show negative trends, that is a 20% increase over July and the 7th straight month of month-to-month gains).

Leaf continues to do well, leading the segment.

The i3 was the big surprise for the month, considering how much it was panned here on Gas Buddy by our resident Toyota fanboy.

;)
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SoylentGrain
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Sep 4, 2014 9:04:18 AM

"If you don't understand what a difference of $5K in tax credits and 35 extra states makes in selling a car "

It's obvious you don't. Just because you claim the reason Bolts sell is because of a tax credit, does not make it a fact. A tax credit would have been one of the last reasons we acquired a Volt. We leased the car because we like it, just like almost every other Volt owner on the planet.

Furthermore, a tax credit does not mean money came out of your pocket. Many people have control over their income. If the need for a car arises, some people sell an asset that generates income (and tax) to buy the car. But, if the car isn't purchased, not sale of assets, no income, no tax to the government. This is just one example.

There are thousands of ways taxes are managed. To claim a tax credit for a Volt or even a Prius costs someone else money is a moronically simplistic argument. If the IRS allows a tax credit for a vehicle, there is a corresponding affect on income elsewhere.

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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Sep 4, 2014 8:44:18 AM

"I just posted an article from the Internet , and it is word for word as written by the author."

rtk - just a point of order, but it is frowned upon to post entire articles, especially with no link.

Just so you don't get into trouble in the future if any of the Mods happen by this thread...

"A total of 67,698 Volts have been sold in the U.S. since the December 2010 introduction of the world's highest-production series hybrid vehicle."

With version 2.0 due out next year, definitely NOT dead ;)
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Charlie_H
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Sep 4, 2014 8:17:29 AM

rkt_wgn: "I just posted an article from the Internet , and it is word for word as written by the author."

I suspected as much.

rkt_wgn: "Then all you can do is to start hammering me like I printed lies."

If you don't understand what a difference of $5K in tax credits and 35 extra states makes in selling a car and how unusual it is for a car to sell 4X its inventry levels, then there's not much that can be done to help you understand the actual significance of what you post.
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hyeglenn
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Message Posted: Sep 4, 2014 12:21:34 AM

NO.
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rkt wgn
Champion Author St. Louis

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Message Posted: Sep 4, 2014 12:14:48 AM

Charles,
You just can't do or say anything nice in any way. Very negative person! :)
I just posted an article from the Internet , and it is word for word as written by the author.
Then all you can do is to start hammering me like I printed lies.
Charles, you are still a "work of art". :)

Have a nice day !
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Charlie_H
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Sep 3, 2014 11:31:08 PM

rkt_wgn: "blah blah blah..."

Proving that people loooove tax breaks.

I'm impressed... that the Prius PHV sold aout 4X as many cars as they keep in inventory. That's a 7-day turn or thereabouts. Pretty good. Too bad it doesn't have 50 state availability but I guess Toyota doesn't see that market as a priority. Maybe they're satisfied to watch GM lose money chasing sales and getting nothing but share erosion for their trouble.
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rkt wgn
Champion Author St. Louis

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Message Posted: Sep 3, 2014 9:51:12 PM

FINAL UPDATE: Plug-In Electric Car Sales In July: Leaf, Volt Both Do Well

The Chevrolet Volt range-extended electric car, meanwhile, logged sales of 2,511, its best performance since August 2013. The deliveries increased its year-to-date total to 13,146.

With a new 2016 Volt to be introduced next January, sales of the current model (now in its fifth year) appear to have leveled off at roughly 2,000 per month.

A total of 67,698 Volts have been sold in the U.S. since the December 2010 introduction of the world's highest-production series hybrid vehicle.

Soaring BMW i3 sales

Meanwhile, after three months of sales of roughly 350 a month, deliveries of the BMW i3 soared in August to a remarkable 1,025--essentially doubling the number sold to date, for a total of 2.082 over four months.

BMW does not, however, break out sales of the battery-electric and range-extended versions, which in past month appear to have run about 60:40 in favor of the REx version.

There were also nine BMW i8 plug-in hybrid coupes sold, in the first month on the market for the stunning six-figure sports car with the gull-wing doors.

Sales of the Tesla Model S luxury electric sedan are estimated, as usual, at about 1,200 units. Tesla Motors refuses to provide monthly sales data, unlike all other automakers.

Plug-in hybrids

Sales of the Toyota Prius Plug-In Hybrid, the third highest-volume plug-in car on U.S. roads, fell sharply in August to just 818 units--fewer than the BMW i3.

That's the lowest monthly total since January, and the lowest proportion of total Prius range sales in more than a year (just 3.5% of 23,427 Prius hybrids and plug-ins sold).

Prius Plug-In Hybrid sales for the first eight months of 2014 now total 11,489.

Ford will report August deliveries for its C-Max Energi hatchback and Fusion Energi sedan plug-in hybrids tomorrow.

Low-volume vehicles

This article will also be updated with sales of lower-volume and compliance cars, roughly defined as those selling 200 units per month or fewer.

The Cadillac ELR range-extended luxury coupe, for example, delivered 196 units, bringing its 2014 sales total to 774 units.

Sales of the Porsche Panamera S E-Hybrid plug-in hybrid ebbed somewhat, with August's deliveries of 68 bringing the year-to-date total to 612.

In its second month on sale, the Mercedes-Benz B-Class Electric Drive saw August sales rise to 51 from July's 41, for a total of 92 delivered thus far.

The Honda Accord Plug-In Hybrid saw 46 deliveries in August, for a year-to-date total of 267.

The little Mitsubishi i-MiEV electric minicar added another 20 sales, bringing its year-to-date figure to 134.

Remaining vehicles are the Smart Electric Drive and the

Compliance cars

Among the compliance cars, there were another 80 Chevrolet Spark EV minicars delivered, for a 2014 total of 844.

[Edited by: rkt wgn at 9/3/2014 9:53:12 PM EST]
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Sep 3, 2014 4:16:20 PM

There goes the neighborhood - looks like the thread is re-booting...
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carinthuist
Champion Author San Francisco

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Message Posted: Sep 3, 2014 2:36:22 PM

no seen on spratucily
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Charlie_H
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Sep 3, 2014 2:29:20 PM

detfan: "Plus, as more and more people come to realize that the Country of Japan is not a reciprocal player in economic fair trade, the trends against the Japanese should continue."

But... m-a-y-b-e the trend does not continue this month. Ford is up very slightly, GM down about 1%, Nissan up 10% or so, Toyota up 6%, Mazda up 10%, Honda up slightly. It certainly doesn't look like GM is gaining market share on Toyota or any of the major Japanese players. If Detroit is going to be gaining share on the Japanese, it looks like it's up to the Italians to make it happen!

The Prius continues to sell well at 23K units (that's the family). It's a pity GM can't get a solid piece of that action but to do so would require a decent hybrid that GM can sell without government help.
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Charlie_H
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Sep 3, 2014 2:19:02 PM

Shockjock1961: "GM has yet again proven to not be that intelligent,"

Yeah, but I'm an optimist.

Shockjock1961, quoting somebody: ""There is no "direct" mechanical linkage between the Volt's gas engine and the wheels, rather there is an indirect linkage that is accomplished by meshing the power output of the engine with the power output of one of the other two electric motors"

Yeah, technbabble. Where did you find that particular quote? Was the speaker referring to the existing Volt? Or the upcoming one? I keep hoping they'll learn from their mistakes but I'm continually disappointed.
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Charlie_H
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Sep 3, 2014 11:57:29 AM

"The financial collapse had EVERYTHING to do with it. Until the financial collapse--and after--GM had/has billions in assets suitable for lending on."

Oh? Then why didn't they revive themselves the way Ford did, with a series of mortgages? Answer: they couldn't. Ford was a better run company with better prospects. GM had far more $bazillions in debt to wash away. Solution: bankruptcy and reoganizaation with government help or bankruptcy and an uncertain future without it.

Without the Obama administration's help, GM would either be toast or owned by the Chinese.
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JOE7BEN
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Message Posted: Sep 3, 2014 11:52:29 AM

yes
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Charlie_H
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Sep 3, 2014 11:51:41 AM

detfan: "Shockjock, as my below post explains, taxpayers lost money in the bankkruptcy not the bailout. GM's bailout was paid back, in full, with interest--four years early."

That wasn't the bailout, that was just the Bush administration kicking the can down the road. The bankruptcy was the bailout. GM paid back the loan with cash advanced on the equity stake the government took. GM still has a fairly large cash pile, all on account of US equity.

GM felt that paying back the loan early, with other money from the government, would impress the gullible. Seems they were right.
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Shockjock1961
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Message Posted: Sep 3, 2014 11:31:32 AM

"The $10B is the equity share that Obama squandered by prematurely selling GM stock for the loss."

LOL!!

Prematurely??? The Feds sold their stock in 2013 at an average of about $35/share. Stock price today? $35/share. How long were the Feds supposed to wait?
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Shockjock1961
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Sep 3, 2014 11:26:50 AM

" I'm assuming GM does the intelligent thing and uses mechanical energy directly whenever they can."

GM has yet again proven to not be that intelligent, since it is claimed that the Volt only rarely provides a mechanical link between the gasoline engine and drive wheels and even then they describe it using technobabble.

"There is no "direct" mechanical linkage between the Volt's gas engine and the wheels, rather there is an indirect linkage that is accomplished by meshing the power output of the engine with the power output of one of the other two electric motors"

Like I said, technobabble...
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detfan
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Message Posted: Sep 3, 2014 11:26:19 AM

Shockjock, as my below post explains, taxpayers lost money in the bankkruptcy not the bailout. GM's bailout was paid back, in full, with interest--four years early. The $10B is the equity share that Obama squandered by prematurely selling GM stock for the loss. Again, never should've been a bankruptcy.
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detfan
Champion Author Tallahassee

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Message Posted: Sep 3, 2014 11:21:49 AM

The financial collapse had EVERYTHING to do with it. Until the financial collapse--and after--GM had/has billions in assets suitable for lending on. The fact is, that after the collapse, credit was frozen, so those that could've and would've lent to GM, were unable to, and the only creditor available was the federal government. With that over GM's head, Obama decided that maintaining GM's liquidity would not suit his purpose, so he forced GM into his version of a bankruptcy, that screwed the investors, rewarded the unions, and forced hundreds of healthy dealerships into closing because they happened to be doing business in a republican state. He fired the CEO, placed new board members with his own people, and made GM uncompetitive in the employment of great talent by highly reducing compensation levels. It was the most blatantly politically motivated overreach of our federal government in history.

But yet, GM survived, and now as a private company again continues to flourish, not because of Obama, but because of 2005 and 2007 contract negotiations, and a return to a high quality and high desirability lineup of products.

GM will forever be remembered as owing us $10B dollars, when it was Obama that decided to take an equity share in GM, and promptly squandered it by selling early and often for a loss. If liquidity would just have been maintained instead of a forced governmental bankruptcy, GM would be in a much more popular PR position, as a company that is regularly paying down it's debt to the taxpayers, with interest.
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Shockjock1961
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Sep 3, 2014 11:06:13 AM

"Shockjock you are mistaken. GM never needed a bankruptcy."

If this is true, then why did the bailout ultimately cost the taxpayer $11.2 billion?
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Charlie_H
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Sep 3, 2014 10:42:00 AM

detfan: "Plus, as more and more people come to realize that the Country of Japan is not a reciprocal player in economic fair trade, the trends against the Japanese should continue."

An interview with the Japanese businessman who is trying to sell GM cars in Japan. Who does he blame?

Why GM struggles in Japan...

Surprise! It's not Japanese protectionism, he blames GM itself. OK... I lied... it's not a surprise. At least, not to those of us who pay attention.
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Charlie_H
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Sep 3, 2014 10:38:43 AM

detfan: "With August Voltec sales of 2,707, the GM PHEV's have reached 80,646 (not including international sales for 2014) It appears that September Voltec sales will put Voltec ahead of Prius global sales for the first five years, leaving three months in 2014 to work on the Prius global sales of 28,083 in year six. Prius global sales for the first five years was 81,689, leaving Voltec needing just 1,044 in sales this month to keep its lead over Prius."

Yay GM! With $7500 per car in Federal help, GM is beating the 2000 Prius! You go, girl! As a bonus, GM "loses money on every one!"

How's it doing against the 2014 Prius? Not a level playing field, of course, because the Prius doesn't get a taxpayer gift in every glove compartment.
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Weaslespit
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Message Posted: Sep 3, 2014 10:36:14 AM

"There's a reason nobody would lend them money that has nothing to do with the general economy."

It had quite a bit to do with it...
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Sep 3, 2014 10:35:28 AM

"The beginning of GM paying attention to cars for competitive sake began in 2001."

I wouldn't pin a date on it - whenever the Cruze, Sonic,'08 'Bu (etc) were initially brought to the table, I would say that is indeed when GM finally began putting forth a serious effort into the midsize and smaller vehicle segments after decades of neglect.

The '07 CTS that launched in '06 was what I would call a revolutionary step forward for that model (and make).

As you mentioned, they have maintained this positive trend moving forward, albeit not hitting 1.000 on all launches.

For the most part, their high-volume vehicles have done much better in the past 10 years or so.
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Charlie_H
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Sep 3, 2014 10:33:45 AM

detfan: "Shockjock you are mistaken. GM never needed a bankruptcy. All they needed was their liquidity, which was fine until the financial collapse in September 2008, the day private credit became extinct. Your friend Obama forced HIS bankruptcy on them and raped America as he did it."

Hahhaha! Thanks for the laugh. GM had negative cash flow for years and restated profits twice. They had alienated customers with miserable product and reluctant service. There's a reason nobody would lend them money that has nothing to do with the general economy. The Obama administration didn't force them into anything, they rescued GM with a fast bailout that let them stay in business and allowed GM to wipe out massive chunks of debt.

detfan: "The beginning of GM paying attention to cars for competitive sake began in 2001. The Pontiac Solstice, and Saturn Sky, the Saturn Aura, the revolutionary design of the 2004 Cadillac CTS. It has continued with the 2014 CTS, and Chevy Impala, and shows continued strength with the soon to be in dealerships best in class Chevy Colorado, and GMC Canyon. GM has improved with each replacement model, and the new models are all doing well--better than their decades old predecessors."

More fact-free history from The Master of Fanning. CTS sales are on the way down. The Aura was doomed, as GM had too many divisions, so that the Aura meant "price war" with any nearby Chevy dealer and the steel body alienated Saturn's actual buyers. The Solstice and Sky were heavy, underperforming (except when GM dropped a bigger, thirstier engine in) and GM lost about $10K on every one (hydroformed metal does not come cheap). Critics laughed at the fiddly top and microscopic trunk. The Colorado and Canyon never sold wwell and the new Impala only sells at old Impala levels because GM is still building the old Impala and selling it to fleets. The new Malibu sells poorly and has been widely criticized for screwing up the most important features of a midsize-car, rear-seat room and trunk space.

17 years after the introduction of the Prius, GM still doesn't have a hybrid that they can sell in any quantity without heavy government support.
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detfan
Champion Author Tallahassee

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Message Posted: Sep 3, 2014 10:17:19 AM

With August Voltec sales of 2,707, the GM PHEV's have reached 80,646 (not including international sales for 2014) It appears that September Voltec sales will put Voltec ahead of Prius global sales for the first five years, leaving three months in 2014 to work on the Prius global sales of 28,083 in year six. Prius global sales for the first five years was 81,689, leaving Voltec needing just 1,044 in sales this month to keep its lead over Prius.

Of course, it is highly likely that when Voltec international sales are added in, that Voltec has already won the five year sales comparison.

Can Voltec keeps its lead in year six? Will the next gen Volt be launched early enough to spike sales in year six? Will gen 2 Volt really increase Voltec sales? Time will tell, but certainly, it is true that the Volt is not dead, unlike the Scion iQ which should be!
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detfan
Champion Author Tallahassee

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Message Posted: Sep 3, 2014 9:56:54 AM

Shockjock you are mistaken. GM never needed a bankruptcy. All they needed was their liquidity, which was fine until the financial collapse in September 2008, the day private credit became extinct. Your friend Obama forced HIS bankruptcy on them and raped America as he did it.

Weaslespit, you need to remember the era that GM was, what people claimed as top heavy truck and suv heavy, was well before the financial collapse and was a very successful model. Well before the collapse the 2008 Malibu with 84 awards, was introduced, with the 2007 Car of the Year Saturn Aura before it. The Chevy Cruze was already planned to replace the Chevy Cobalt, which was a dramatic improvement over the Cavalier. The Chevy Sonic was also being developed to replace the Aveo. The beginning of GM paying attention to cars for competitive sake began in 2001. The Pontiac Solstice, and Saturn Sky, the Saturn Aura, the revolutionary design of the 2004 Cadillac CTS. It has continued with the 2014 CTS, and Chevy Impala, and shows continued strength with the soon to be in dealerships best in class Chevy Colorado, and GMC Canyon. GM has improved with each replacement model, and the new models are all doing well--better than their decades old predecessors.

Because of this, GM, Ford, and Chrysler have been building market share each year against Toyota, Honda and Nissan since 2009, a reversal of the previous three decades. As more and more people realize that you don't have to buy a Japanese car to benefit from quality and design, this share is likely to continue to increase. Plus, as more and more people come to realize that the Country of Japan is not a reciprocal player in economic fair trade, the trends against the Japanese should continue.
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Charlie_H
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Sep 3, 2014 9:21:07 AM

Shockjock1961: "That's without loss. There is a significant amount of loss when converting the mechanical energy to electrical energy, further losses as electrical energy is coverted to chemical energy and then back to electrical energy... "

True. However, I'm assuming GM does the intelligent thing and uses mechanical energy directly whenever they can. Otherwise, I think the dual-conversion losses are 20-25%, which still leaves 50-55KW as adequate.
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Shockjock1961
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Sep 3, 2014 9:08:32 AM

That's without loss. There is a significant amount of loss when converting the mechanical energy to electrical energy, further losses as electrical energy is coverted to chemical energy and then back to electrical energy...
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Charlie_H
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Sep 3, 2014 8:52:45 AM

I just realized, I'm guilty of inconsistent use of units. 75hp is 50-55KW.
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Charlie_H
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Sep 2, 2014 10:59:18 AM

An ICE of 75hp ought to be enough. A compact car should be able to maintain a speed of 75mph with lights, stereo and A/C with 20-25KW or so, leaving 25-30KW headroom for battery charge maintenance. I expect it will be an alloy engine, so there should be significant weight reduction in the ICE portion of the system. Whether or not it employs the faux Atkinson cycle for more efficiency gains is more doubtful.
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CoolPriusGuy
Champion Author Detroit

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Message Posted: Aug 30, 2014 11:10:01 PM

2016 Chevy Volt Range-Extending Engine To Have 75 HP?

“The 2016 Chevrolet Volt is expected to downsize to a three-cylinder unit to boost efficiency, but few other details are known--apart from perhaps its power output.”

“General Motors has announced the latest round of investment for a new engine lineup, and among the details are news 1.0 to 1.5-liter, three and four-cylinder engines, with power outputs starting at 75 horsepower.”

Courtesy of: Autos.yahoo.com
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