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Author Topic: Are You A Courteous Driver Or Selfish Driver? Back to Topics
SemiSteve

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Tampa

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Message Posted: Jan 14, 2013 4:11:39 PM

Selfish: Some drivers tailgate everybody and make sure they never allow any others to make a lane change in front of them.

Courteous drivers allow the proper following distance and let others in when they need to get over.

You sure can't be both at the same time.

Some drivers might change their habits if they are in a hurry; but prefer to be courteous if they can. That's me. And I almost never deem my hurry to be so dire that I forgo safety. So most of the time that's me letting you in if you need to. And I appreciate it if you then keep the pace up and use your signals. But if you don't it is not the end of the world. I'll just wait till it is clear or I can get around you so I can go again.

But I suspect that most simply drive the same way all the time.

Selfish or Courteous.

So which are you?
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keriazy4
Veteran Author Montreal

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Message Posted: Feb 13, 2013 10:42:14 AM

imagine your self 10 minutes waiting in traffic to finally reach the bridge and suddenly a guy came from the right lane "obligatory right lane" just before the solid line and he want to push u to take ur place ..these guys who want to steel the traffic i never give them the road ..
otherwise no problem with me
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SemiSteve
Champion Author Tampa

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Message Posted: Feb 4, 2013 11:26:01 AM

Oh yeah. That "Me-First" attitude. I call these drivers M-F's. I'm not sure if I see how that hurts the flow of traffic, (how does that reduce the number of vehicles making it through a light, for instance?) but it does cause a lot of problems.

One of which is that with so many M-F's loose out there people are hesitant to leave proper following distance, concerned that others will cut in. This wastes a lot of gas. Here's how:

The most sensible way for the flow of traffic to slow down for a red light would be for everyone to take their foot off the gas and allow their cars to begin slowing down as soon as a light flips red (or even before it does if they know it is about to by paying attention to the cycle). This saves a lot of gas. If this were common practice we would have less demand for gasoline and prices would be lower. We would also save a lot on brakes and tires because they would last much longer also.

But since we have a few M-F's out there making life miserable for everyone else most are afraid to leave any more than minimum following distance and they are afraid to take their foot of the gas until the car ahead begins to slow down. That has most traffic racing up to each red light and keeping their feet on the gas pedals way longer than necessary to propel the car up the light. And then, since they are coming in with so much speed, they have to brake harder than is necessary, causing extra wear and tear on the brakes and tires.

What a colossal waste, all because of a few jerks!

Another problem caused by M-F's is the stress they cause. There is no need for traffic to jam up so close. And close proximity at speed is dangerous. So it forces others to be tense and stressed when their should be no need for it. It makes some angry and causes them to do things they might not otherwise do. It can lead to confrontations and road rage.

I refuse to let a few jerks dictate how I drive. I just let them do all their aggressive weaving stuff and pass me as they race up to a red light. Then I come rolling up about the time the light turns green; and there I am, right there with them again. All they got for their stressed-out effort was one or two cars up in line and a lot of wear and tear on their cars plus the wasted gas. And down the road when they pull off to get more gas I go right by because I don't need any yet.
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rick_evans
Champion Author Boston

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Message Posted: Feb 1, 2013 2:00:45 PM

"We have to start thinking like Europeans and try to move all of the traffic as quickly as possible."

Yeah, we should all drive like they drive in Rome.
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SemiSteve
Champion Author Tampa

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Message Posted: Feb 1, 2013 12:12:06 PM

It never ceases to amaze me how many times I see aggressive drivers weaving and tailgating; and endangering themselves and those around them. And then, after all that risk-taking, I pull up right next to them at the next light. Or right behind them. Or even way past them in another lane.

It's not how hard you push in traffic that affects your travel time. It's how many red lights you wait for. Unless you get past everybody and make the next light just before it flips red you end up waiting for it just like everyone else who is driving safely and courteously. When the light turns green everybody goes. It doesn't matter who is ahead and who is behind. Everybody goes. The ones in front are only seconds ahead of the ones in back.

I used to be more aggressive but backed off in recent years. It doesn't take me any longer to drive across town than it did when I was trying to make things happen that weren't meant to happen.
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SemiSteve
Champion Author Tampa

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Message Posted: Jan 28, 2013 3:08:35 PM

Here's an other one.

I'm driving along and keeping pace with the traffic. Somebody comes up behind me at a faster speed. They get a little close but not real bad. I know they want to go faster and I need to move over anyway so I look for a safe opening to lane change. I signal and begin to move over.

And how does my courtesy of letting this impatient one go get repaid?

Before I can complete my lane change he is next to me in the same lane passing me in a near-collision.

There is no school for bad driving. They just figure this stuff all out for themselves. If only they would spend as much creativity trying to figure out how to be a safer driver...
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dontuknowOH
Champion Author Ohio

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Message Posted: Jan 25, 2013 10:05:59 PM

I thought every male driver graduated from the James Bond...skool with an Euro ego D..licences,I had that Connery look a like at one time. Close at 230# 6.3,harry chest,dark hair,junky car was my give-away....LOL!
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reamedatthepump
Sophomore Author Toronto

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Message Posted: Jan 25, 2013 7:00:08 PM

I agree with SemiSteve. That is the way we should all drive. We have to start thinking like Europeans and try to move all of the traffic as quickly as possible.

Unfortunately, North Americans have a "Me First" attitude which is not the most efficient way to move a large amount of vehicles, and leads to grid lock.

Also, why do North Americans use the brake pedal as a FailSafe? Applying it with such unnecessary force that they quite possibly, will permanently affect the lives of those driving behind them.
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Titanic1985
Champion Author South Carolina

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Message Posted: Jan 25, 2013 2:34:44 PM

Hello traffic_cop. I am sincerely and truely impressed with your Bible reference, as it is befitting of this topic and our human nature. I use the KJV 1611 Bible and in it Romans 7:19 states it as "For the good that I would I do not; but the evil which would not, that I do". I realize my reference, which by the way is Chapter 7, is in Old English, but is not too difficult to understand.

Regarding the driver in my example and your reference to it, my 16 year disability has taught me much and I don't retaliate when one does a foolish act which endangers myself or my family. That doesn't mean it doesn't "bother" me, but safety is paramount and so is being an example to others and my family.

You did bring up an interesting point, that being that many of these selfish drivers are not adequate in their driving skills and frequently become involved in collisions (they are not accidents when you exceed you or your vehicle's capabilities).

Take care & thank you for a great post :-). MGY
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eccerr0r
Champion Author Fort Collins

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Message Posted: Jan 25, 2013 12:34:56 PM

Sometimes I wonder, a lot of society is "go with the flow or get out of the way" which implies that people with small cars should ...

hmm...

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traffic cop
Champion Author Boston

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Message Posted: Jan 25, 2013 11:57:21 AM

I'm afraid I'm both --selfish or courteous -- at different times. I want to be courteous, but like Paul said,

"I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me" (Rom. 18b-20).

As a taxi driver, I find I have to be pretty aggressive, but I generally let people make their turns, etc.

Regarding tailgating: The sensible thing to do is to ease up, and let that jerk pass you. You just eliminated an immediate danger, and he is now ahead of you where you can keep an eye on him. Don't tailgate him! Who knows--you might see him crash or get pulled over by a trooper!
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jrferrari
All-Star Author Orlando

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Message Posted: Jan 23, 2013 10:31:33 AM

I try to be courtious, but I'm from NJ so I have lots of training in being "selfish" (which is a very nice way of putting it). In traffic I don't give written invitations if someone wants to get in front of me, but if they signal and move when there is an opportunity I will let them in.

Typically if I notice a turn signal I will make room for the driver in front of me.

I try to be coureous, but some times my NJ roots and instincts take over :)
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Banjoe
Champion Author Winnipeg

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Message Posted: Jan 23, 2013 8:40:00 AM

Fascinating discussion. I wish I was driving the same roads with some of you. Some of you......well, not so much.
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rjro
Champion Author Albany

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Message Posted: Jan 23, 2013 8:30:43 AM

I am a courteous driver and allow people to merge in front of me.
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SemiSteve
Champion Author Tampa

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Message Posted: Jan 23, 2013 8:20:23 AM

I hear you on the 'mindless.' But I place such driving in the selfish category. The reason is because these drivers are not taking safety seriously and they are doing it on purpose. Every time I get behind the wheel I realize that this could be my last time. I realize that driving is THE MOST DANGEROUS thing I will do that day, as it is for nearly all of us. Not taking it seriously is selfish.

As a defensive driver, what do you do when you see a vehicle approaching rapidly behind you and headed directly for your rear end?

We've got a lot of drivers around here who like to wait until the last possible instant to change lanes for a pass. It is obviously a habit for many of them. Sometimes it is laziness, sometimes it is all the space they have. Either way the result is a near-collision passing maneuver.

I don't like it. I don't put up with it.

As a defensive driver, I check my rear every 3-5 seconds. If somebody comes up on me like that I try to make an evasive move timed at just the correct moment. I'm always keeping tabs on if I am clear to make such a swerve to avoid such a collision.

Why do I try so hard to maintain separation between vehicles?

Because here's the thing.

You never know if that person coming up so fast behind you is paying attention or not. You don't know if they really know what they are doing of if they are drunk or blitzed on drugs or what. I don't want to give them the chance to hit me.

It only takes once.

You get rear-ended at speed and it could wipe you out and send you into a roll.

If you are complacent to this and 'just accept it' as part of driving then you are not being defensive. Allowing yourself to become desensitized to such dangers is like asking to die.

I drive a small car. There's a lot of SOBs in SUVs out there. They've got mass. They abuse it. I've got maneuverability. I use it.
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Dale Jr.
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Jan 21, 2013 8:35:44 AM

Both
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Titanic1985
Champion Author South Carolina

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Message Posted: Jan 20, 2013 9:46:35 AM

Hello SemiSteve. I've been thinking about your post as I drive and noticed there could be a third catagory other than courteous or selfish. I just haven't been able to place a name to it other than "mindless".

An example of this occurred to me this week while driving 70 MPH (the posted speed limit) on Interstate 20 toward Georgia. The driver rode my bumper for two miles and then in a flash bolted around me (no turn signals) and cut sharply in front of me. Following that maneuver, he dropped his speed as though he were coasting to 40 MPH. When I went to pass him, he floored his vehicle and accelerated well above 70 MPH. We were the only two vehicles on the Interstate, at the time.

Maybe, a Gas Buddy could better define this type of driving behavior?

Take care :-) - MGY



[Edited by: Titanic1985 at 1/20/2013 9:47:34 AM EST]
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BlueberryFocus
All-Star Author Rochester

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Message Posted: Jan 18, 2013 6:51:17 PM

Definantely depends on the situation
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Saab93turbo
Champion Author Washington

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Message Posted: Jan 18, 2013 6:45:32 PM

Some people are courteous drivers to drivers ahead but not behind. Sometimes, they don't even realize this when they cut and then drive slowly causing the driver behind to have to brake.
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Moe86
Champion Author Ontario

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Message Posted: Jan 18, 2013 5:14:56 PM

Both.
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SemiSteve
Champion Author Tampa

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Message Posted: Jan 18, 2013 2:11:55 PM

Oh yeah. The no signalling thing. How much effort does it take to use the turn signal? It can be done with one finger. You'd think that since they know how to use that finger for something else they could use it to signal a lane change.

And this is even more important these days with all the 'fooled you - not really a lane change' swerving going on thanks to instant distraction phones. Last time I checked the lanes are quite large enough to stay within the lines with plenty of room to spare. I can't believe more people don't get pulled over as DUI suspects with so many of them lost in phone-world. I never saw so many drivers coming across the line only to swerve right back in my life! Is it a lane change or not? I'll let you know when we collide.

And traffic law enforcement? Gimme a break. How are we going to expect the police to write tix for failure to signal when they themselves don't use signals! Same thing goes for following too close. Good luck getting law enforcement to bust tailgaters when a goodly portion of the tailgaters are police cars.

I came over a hill one time in the right lane of a multi-lane expressway with some idiot glued to my rear bumper, while going the exact speed limit, to find myself staring into the nozzle of a radar gun being held by a motorcycle officer. "Ah, I thought. Cool. I may have saved this jerk from a speeding ticket but now he'll get one for tailgating. The officer knows how fast we are going and he can clearly see that insufficient stopping distance is being allowed." Nope! Apparently attaching yourself to the back of another vehicle at 55mph is perfectly OK. And to think my taxes are paying this guy to 'protect and serve'. Can I get a refund?
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CobraJ
Champion Author Tampa

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Message Posted: Jan 18, 2013 9:58:36 AM

Depends on how I feel that day.
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PatAZ
Champion Author Tucson

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Message Posted: Jan 18, 2013 9:45:09 AM

Courteous
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dgsteven
Champion Author Los Angeles

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Message Posted: Jan 18, 2013 3:40:26 AM

both, depends on the situation
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petrolscan
Sophomore Author Indiana

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Message Posted: Jan 18, 2013 2:49:30 AM

what we have around here is called the GM, NASCAR MENTALITY...i have to race around you , to cut in front of you, to get to the next red light 0.4 seconds faster than you...then i will poke along...but by george if you try to pass me...i speed up so you cant...thats what we put up with...last person who pulled that on me...i wrote up...i was in an unmarked police car...moral of the story...is be nice...i might be behind you...LOL
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probedude2
Champion Author Akron

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Message Posted: Jan 18, 2013 1:09:20 AM

I'm an Offensive Driver
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RRBC
Champion Author Victoria

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Message Posted: Jan 17, 2013 10:51:26 PM

I try to be considerate to other drivers and pedestrians. If I don't pay attention to the rules of the road, then I'd say I'm not courteous.
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Titanic1985
Champion Author South Carolina

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Message Posted: Jan 17, 2013 12:09:49 PM

Hello SemiSteve. My response to some of these post is to "enlighten" some of what their actions can cause. I lived in Virginia for almost 15 years and drove 42 miles to work. There were three activities I saw daily that cause many, many accidents. One has been mentioned here several times.

When a highway sign says 'lane ends in two miles' merge into the other lane before running all the way up and "bunching" traffic. In SC, most drivers do merge early and there isn't a sudden slowdown of ten or more vehicles. We just continue driving at the speed limit. Add frustration to that when you see someone in your door mirror jumping out of the line just to beat a few vehicles and get stuck trying to merge at the end. In Northern VA, most people will get angry and not let you in.

A second scenario in VA is driving on the shoulder of an Interstate. I've seen people block emergency vehicles trying to get to an accident scene which has caused the backup and can't get by the driver on the shoulder. That driver, to me, should have his license revoked permanently!

The "hot button" to most are those who violate the HOV (High Occupancy Vehicle lane which in VA required four or more persons in a vehicle). The violator sees the State Police waiting and literally rams their vehicle into your lane, not caring for the damage done. I've seen many multiple car pileups due to this behavior.

If people would just obey the laws, most of these offenses wouldn't happen. In South Carolina, I've not see such aggressive behavior and most people do let people merge. I never want to drive in Northern Virginia again!! Amen! :-) MGY
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wamster
Champion Author Houston

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Message Posted: Jan 17, 2013 11:36:07 AM

I agree with you SemiSteve and LuckyD43.

99.9% I'm a courteous driver. Use signals, brake early so the person behind me knows what's going on, leave early for appointments so I'm in no hurry, don't sit in the fast lane, try to leave plenty of space (2 second rule) between cars, let people merge in front of me if they're trying to change lanes. I don't speed up to try to prevent someone from passing me.

I rarely get any of this in return; especially trying to merge into another lane. I can't tell you the number of times I've missed a turn because a person won't let me in the lane. Thank Heavens for the lane assist Garmin.
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contiki
Champion Author Ontario

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Message Posted: Jan 17, 2013 11:18:08 AM

Depends on what the situation is. I try and be courteous but sometimes I fall short of it..............
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SemiSteve
Champion Author Tampa

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Message Posted: Jan 17, 2013 11:05:03 AM

I have to wonder what good it does people to tailgate the last car in a long line of cars? How many times do you see somebody tailgating another driver when that other driver is stuck behind traffic? This is just total immaturity. It's not like the one being tailgated has the option of speeding up. It is an impossible situation.

And if that is not bad enough (or should I say stupid enough) this kind of driving seems to be contagious. Sometimes you can see several vehicles all too close, one right after another. What the heck are they thinking? Since one person is being stupid that makes it OK for everyone else to be stupid? Like the laws of physics suddenly don't apply? As if they could all stop if a vehicle up front had to make a panic stop? What if a vehicle up front had a tire blow out and lost control, swerving across lanes? People would be on the brakes in a flash. If many vehicles were too close that's how pile-ups happen. How stupid to place oneself in such a situation!

People need to back off and leave the proper stopping distance. Two seconds. Just look at something on the ground when the vehicle in front of you passes it and count two seconds. If you pass that point before the 2 seconds, you are TOO CLOSE. Back off. The life you save may be your own. And even if it is somebody else who dies do you want to live with that? People need to grow up and back off.

Babies at the wheel = bodies in the morgue.
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WEPSMAN
Champion Author South Dakota

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Message Posted: Jan 16, 2013 10:04:43 PM

Depends on the situation. I try and be courteous, but does not always happen.
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SemiSteve
Champion Author Tampa

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Message Posted: Jan 16, 2013 9:25:27 PM

It's just fear.

All the ones who line up in a lane that doesn't HAVE TO merge are afraid that if they get in the empty lane that somebody mean won't let them back in and they will spend the rest of their lives there. Basically, they have no trust in the kindness of strangers. But I know that kindness exists because it is alive in me. If I am the one there and somebody needs to merge I let them in. So I am one of the ones who is not afraid to use an empty lane until the point where the two lanes need to merge into one lane.

Things we learned in kindergarten. Take turns. The zipper method. Have some trust in your neighbors.

Trust, not greed.
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gvan
Champion Author Chicago

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Message Posted: Jan 16, 2013 12:44:34 PM

"I'm sure if people are sitting and waiting for a long time and then they see that the entire wait was needless they might think this way. But if the one who uses and empty lane does not force their way in; and simply depends on the ever-present kindness of strangers to get back in then the greed label is unwarranted. Instead of being greedy this person is being smart. This person is obeying all traffic laws and being a courteous driver."

Sorry, I don't think this is courteous at all. You may not force your way into the lane but every driver behind you, afer you made your lane change, then has to hit the brakes. I've seen it happen way too many times.
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SemiSteve
Champion Author Tampa

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Message Posted: Jan 16, 2013 10:38:08 AM

" It's just pure greed of the person who's doing this to hope that they will cut ahead"

--I'm sure if people are sitting and waiting for a long time and then they see that the entire wait was needless they might think this way. But if the one who uses and empty lane does not force their way in; and simply depends on the ever-present kindness of strangers to get back in then the greed label is unwarranted. Instead of being greedy this person is being smart. This person is obeying all traffic laws and being a courteous driver.

Of course nobody likes it when they have waited a long time and then they see somebody a few cars back try to jump ahead. But when that empty lane is so long that the ones in front can't see where the ones in the next lane came from then it is a different story.
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eccerr0r
Champion Author Fort Collins

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Message Posted: Jan 15, 2013 8:12:07 PM

>> Why not use [the ending merging lane] until the end if it will help get more traffic moving?

The bottle neck is in front of you regardless if you switch or not, it's not going to help traffic moving - it's just a win/lose risk for that person doing it. In fact it's helpful that you merge early so if there is an emergency of any kind, these people have an extra lane to get ahead if needed (I will definitely let ambulances and firetrucks pass!). It's just pure greed of the person who's doing this to hope that they will cut ahead, and thus at least get that many cars ahead to the free zone where the traffic lets off.

I'll admit, I tend to be a selfish driver mostly to prevent other people from being more selfish than me... If I see someone quickly passing a whole bunch of cars from behind (or I actually see someone from behind getting out of the slow moving lane I'm in, trying to pass everyone), you can be sure I will make sure there's no gap in front of me. However if the driver had been in traffic and we've been going forward together, yes I will stop and let that person into my lane...

I don't know what to call this, more like "justice" almost. Need less people who want to try to beat the system - by letting them fail once in a while (i.e., making them wait at the merge point). Of course I won't wreck my car to do it. It depends how much power my car has to quickly fill the gap...
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LuckyD43
Champion Author Long Island

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Message Posted: Jan 15, 2013 8:06:05 PM

I always try to be courteous, but with all the selfish drivers out there, it certainly isn't easy.
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SemiSteve
Champion Author Tampa

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Message Posted: Jan 15, 2013 7:06:00 PM

Very interesting posts so far.

Further thoughts:

The reason I suspect that some people are all selfish all the time is from observation. They do these chincy things that get them nothing, and are of no advantage. Such as when it is not rush hour but they are driving as if they are in the middle of a big crush. Tailgating others when nobody else is close, when another lane is wide open and they could easily pass if they want to. How absurd! Making the near-collision passing maneuver when there are only two cars in sight on a near-empty road. How ridiculous! It's like they only know one way to drive and that's it all the time.

gvan: " 1% of the time I get annoyed by other drivers who drive in a lane that ends and then want me to let them cut in front of me. "

--I do that. I see no reason to let a lane go unused just because it ends soon. Why not use it until the end if it will help get more traffic moving? Seems scary to go by all the stopped or slow-moving traffic; so I am always on the look-out for sudden moves. But the thing is 99% of the time somebody will let you in. I never force it. Never have to. Somebody always lets you in. I've been that somebody myself. I let people in if I'm there. If two lanes are merging into one, the thing to do is use the zipper method. Alternate one car from each lane. Take turns like we were taught in kindergarten.

Of course once in a while there is that selfish person who doesn't want to take turns. But what's the big deal? If traffic is moving slow it doesn't matter if you are one car up or back. When it gets going again you'll cover that distance in the blink of an eye.

FIDO: Forget It - Drive On.
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bearscharger
Champion Author Cleveland

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Message Posted: Jan 15, 2013 7:03:14 PM

both
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Moe86
Champion Author Ontario

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Message Posted: Jan 15, 2013 5:32:31 PM

Both.
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Titanic1985
Champion Author South Carolina

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Message Posted: Jan 15, 2013 2:41:34 PM

Hi Jimmy544. You said, "Some people do not deserve a brake!" Does the word brake versus break imply that you'd rather ram someone? Just kidding -- I tend to see humor in some posts. No criticism is intended, as I also post something that seems to make sense and later read it and wonder why I wrote it that way. Thanks for the laugh :-). MGY

By the way, I've driven in the Boston area and calling it a challenge would be an understatement, especially the rotaries. The mindset there is "Death before dishonor."
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jimmy544
Champion Author Boston

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Message Posted: Jan 15, 2013 1:02:31 PM

Mostly courteous but on occasion no as we live in Metro-Boston. Some people do not deserve a brake!
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OceanArcher
Champion Author Mississippi

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Message Posted: Jan 15, 2013 10:16:58 AM

Like most others, I certainly try to be courteous at all times -- but I occasionally slip. The reason I know that, is my wife nags me about it when it happens ... :)
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Titanic1985
Champion Author South Carolina

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Message Posted: Jan 15, 2013 9:59:57 AM

I do my very best to be courteous to other drivers.
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bluenvoy
Champion Author Nashville

Posts:17,387
Points:2,144,865
Joined:Oct 2005
Message Posted: Jan 15, 2013 9:38:01 AM

I try to be courteous but there are too many self centered drivers that make it difficult.
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gvan
Champion Author Chicago

Posts:25,006
Points:3,373,740
Joined:Dec 2004
Message Posted: Jan 15, 2013 9:21:49 AM

Courteous 99% of the time. 1% of the time I get annoyed by other drivers who drive in a lane that ends and then want me to let them cut in front of me.
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BT1288
Champion Author Lincoln

Posts:25,232
Points:1,962,515
Joined:May 2009
Message Posted: Jan 15, 2013 8:29:49 AM

Yes
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the1roadhog
Champion Author Atlanta

Posts:11,521
Points:2,569,805
Joined:Jun 2007
Message Posted: Jan 15, 2013 8:28:22 AM

Usually cut the other guy some slack.
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dontuknowOH
Champion Author Ohio

Posts:3,410
Points:59,065
Joined:Aug 2009
Message Posted: Jan 15, 2013 7:50:13 AM

85% courteous,10% selfish,5% numb by other drivers actions,trying to relate a submiting gesture by using the headlamp flash, I'm OK...to go due your thing,I'll wait.

It seems a few drivers take that signal as a dominating gesture,they often then freeze their actions,and look at you as if they saw an alien landing craft land.
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OilerFan
Champion Author Tulsa

Posts:16,233
Points:2,867,165
Joined:Aug 2005
Message Posted: Jan 15, 2013 7:46:05 AM

I think your definitions are inaccurate. SOme selfish drivers drive way under the speed limit and need someone to ride their ass a little bit so that they speed up or get off the highway.
In areas where there is a lot of traffic, it just isn't practical to allow too much room just because there are too many cars. It's best just to drive a reasonable speed, allow a safe distance and expect that merging traffic will either try to get in front or if they're timid souls, they'll wait and go behind.
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EdPG
Champion Author Boston

Posts:14,662
Points:3,208,135
Joined:Jul 2005
Message Posted: Jan 15, 2013 7:33:06 AM

Courteous
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