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rkt wgn

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Message Posted: Oct 26, 2012 9:36:27 PM

Went for mileage, bought my wife a volt
REPLIES (newest first) Topic is locked
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Don
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Message Posted: Jul 3, 2013 1:44:50 PM

Topic closed by OP request.
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Hemond
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Message Posted: Jul 3, 2013 1:25:24 AM

Looks like all car manufacturers had a good month in June. Sales were huge this month.
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Charlie_H
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Message Posted: Jul 2, 2013 8:37:45 PM

Tesla might stay in the black; they also sell components to other companies.

I'm not saying it's *likely* but it's possible. I wonder how SpaceX is doing?
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Hemond
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Message Posted: Jul 2, 2013 6:22:41 PM

Speaking of ZEV credits. This is the reasons Tesla showed a profit last quarter. It earns lots and lots of ZEV credits as all its cars are electric. It then turns around and sells those credits to other makers.

Without the credits last quarter, Tesla would have shown a dramatic loss. Those credits are now over. Tesla should be reporting its 2nd quarter coming up in mid August. A loss is likely.
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Hemond
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Message Posted: Jul 2, 2013 2:04:00 PM

QUOTE :::If the plug-in market is a failure, then why are there so many coming out?::;


Because the 6 largest auto makers in the US are under mandate to produce a minimum number of ZEVs this year. (zero emission vehicles)

You are seeing what is called 'mandated vehicles' .Fiat doesn't care one bit if their 500Ev sells or not. They have in fact already sold out. They are just making enough to satisfy ZEV laws.
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reb4
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Message Posted: Jul 2, 2013 1:54:01 PM

If the plug-in market is a failure, then why are there so many coming out?
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Hemond
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Message Posted: Jul 2, 2013 11:21:53 AM

They just released June's sales figures - 2698 Volts sold. A large increase.
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Charlie_H
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Message Posted: Jun 27, 2013 2:07:29 PM

Weaslespit: "Whatever it takes for a 'win, eh?"

If you don't like "months from launch" comparisons... don't post them.

Of course, there's comparisons and then there's comparisons... the Prius PHV and Volt launched within 15 months of each other into similar fuel prices, with the same incentive structures in place, with roughly equal market awareness of HEV/PHEV capabilities.

The Prius G1 and Volt launched 13 years apart, into dissimlar fuel prices, dissimilar incentives and completely different market awareness of the potential benefit and trouble of a gas-electric drivetrain.

A Prius PHV to Volt comparison, therefore, is going to be more useful than a Volt to Prius G1 comparison.

Another factor in such comparisons would be "What constrains sales?" We know from GM's own press propaganda - I mean releases - that GM has always had the capability to build more Volts than they have been selling and that Volts have been stacking up, gathering dust on dealer lots pretty steadily since launch (and I know this for a fact because, for a while, I made a hobby of tracking Volts on nearby dealer lots by their VINs). With the G1 Prius, supply information is unavailable.

So, we don't know another key element of the Prius G1 to Volt comparison... Did the Prius G1 sell relatively slowly because it was capacity constrained or did Toyota sell only a couple dozen thousand because buyers were few and far between? It's certainly the case that I visited the Toyota dealer back in '01, to buy a car, and didn't see acres of Prius G1s stored there but that's anectdotal and not conclusive.

Weaslespit: "The PIP is a failure in the US based on its anemic 2013 sales pace; pure and simple. Anything besides a complete retrofit with 'vastly' enhanced range (thus a dramatic increase in price) will just be lipstick on a pig tht more people won't want as they can get much more value in a standard Prius."

Not qutite; I'll fix it for you:

The Volt is a failure in the world based on its anemic 2013 sales pace; pure and simple. Anything besides a complete retrofit with 'vastly' enhanced capability and reduced price (thus a dramatic increase in investment) will just be lipstick on a pig tht more people won't want in spite of massive government givebacks as they can get much more value in almost anything else.

There. Perfect.
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Shockjock1961
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Message Posted: Jun 27, 2013 1:15:31 PM

"The PIP is a failure in the US"

I agree. The entire plug-in segment is a failure. The Volt is proof of that...

[Edited by: Shockjock1961 at 6/27/2013 1:16:26 PM EST]
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Weaslespit
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Message Posted: Jun 27, 2013 12:56:13 PM

"The segment is a miniscule protion of the whole."

The segment is the whole. The PIP is 'a' miniscule portion of the whole.



[Edited by: Weaslespit at 6/27/2013 12:57:59 PM EST]
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Weaslespit
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Message Posted: Jun 27, 2013 12:55:06 PM

"Not that the Prius PHV is a top-seller or anything but its sales as of March were 32K, worldwide. That's for its initial 12 months, so it outsold the Volt by something like 3:1 in its first year."

Whatever it takes for a 'win, eh?

The PIP is a failure in the US based on its anemic 2013 sales pace; pure and simple. Anything besides a complete retrofit with 'vastly' enhanced range (thus a dramatic increase in price) will just be lipstick on a pig tht more people won't want as they can get much more value in a standard Prius. It is a wasted 'option'.
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Shockjock1961
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Message Posted: Jun 27, 2013 12:52:51 PM

"Except that the segment continues to sell more and more as a whole."

The segment is a miniscule protion of the whole. What's interesting to note on the subject is that despite the segment increasing in small amounts, the Volt sales number are decreasing...
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Shockjock1961
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Message Posted: Jun 27, 2013 12:49:19 PM

"You meant to say the PIP at a 'distant' #4 seller with barely 33% of the sales of the 'struggling' Volt (and continuing to drop in monthly sales) is the one that can't compete"

No, I meant they really haven't bothered to try and compete in a segment that is incapable of providing a profitable automobile...
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Weaslespit
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Message Posted: Jun 27, 2013 12:21:14 PM

"In a mere three years it's dropped to the #3 seller in the segment. More proof it can't compete..."

You meant to say the PIP at a 'distant' #4 seller with barely 33% of the sales of the 'struggling' Volt (and continuing to drop in monthly sales) is the one that can't compete.

40,292 thorugh May of 2013 think that the Volt competed better than any other plug-in on the market. Pretty solid numbers for the segment.



[Edited by: Weaslespit at 6/27/2013 12:26:30 PM EST]
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Weaslespit
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Message Posted: Jun 27, 2013 12:18:33 PM

"The Volt pretty much demonstrates with it's declining sales that PIP is simply a dead end at this time, at least in terms of providing a profitable vehicle..."

Except that the segment continues to sell more and more as a whole. It seems both you and Toyota are missing the big picture just as the D3 did when hybrids were first being introduced into the market.
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Shockjock1961
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Message Posted: Jun 27, 2013 12:10:46 PM

"Not yet. How much will they have to 'blow' to get a competitive vehicle in this segment?"

Perhaps they will not even attempt to put any more money into the segment. The Volt pretty much demonstrates with it's declining sales that PIP is simply a dead end at this time, at least in terms of providing a profitable vehicle...
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Shockjock1961
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Message Posted: Jun 27, 2013 11:57:43 AM

"Despite being first on the market and approaching 3 years in service it is still the #3 seller in the segment."

In a mere three years it's dropped to the #3 seller in the segment. More proof it can't compete...
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Charlie_H
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Message Posted: Jun 27, 2013 10:43:54 AM

Not that the Prius PHV is a top-seller or anything but its sales as of March were 32K, worldwide. That's for its initial 12 months, so it outsold the Volt by something like 3:1 in its first year.

This:

Weaslespit: "Deflect from the failure of the PIP all you want. It doesn't change the fact that currently Toyota still doesn't have a plug-in EV that has any chance at selling now or in the future - regardless of you trying to minimize this fact by calling the PIP a 'option' like heated seats or power windows."

bears further discussion...

The Prius PHV is a Prius with a different battery and a plug. It's otherwise identical to a Prius. It's the equivalent to a 351 vs 429 CID engine in a '68 Ford Galaxie... no sensible person would call those different cars.

It appears (Edmunds) that the Prius will be revised for the 2015 model year. Whether or not Toyota chooses to adapt the PHV with more EV range or other capability remains to be seen. But Toyota has a flexible and extensible HSD platform on which to build, so, as with the current PHV, they can introduce product the way they want quickly. Since they platform-share their PHV with the regular Prius, PHV-specific development costs are low; getting further into the plug-in segment will cost them little in the way of investment.

HSD is available in cars ranging from the 2800lb Prius C through the 5000 lb, 500-horsepower Lexus LS600h and the Lexus RX450h, which has a tow capability of 3500 lbs. That is a lot of flexibility and Toyota can move the car in any direction they like.

It's absurd for some to continue whinging about the Prius PHV's supposed slow sales when it's beating the Volt in the Detroit FanBoyz favorite "months from launch" comparisons and uses a platform that has obvious potential.

The future for the Volt doesn't show any competitive advantage, either, and investment challenges will continue. Akerson admitted some months ago that the current Volt loses money and GM has been on a rebate binge since, further increasing losses on the car.

In spite of this, Akerson has promised a number of improvements to the Volt, few of which can be carried out with the current vehicle. GM is going to have to sink significant investment into the product simply to put in the promised 5th seat and the promised weight reduction is another major challenge.

If GM continues to use the hacked Delta II platform, or hacks a Delta III instead of doing a purpose-built platform, they're going to spend a lot of time and energy trimming weight and making the logistics of assembly more complex without being able to achieve the kind of lightweight, optimized vehicle that would come from a dedicated platform. But they're between a rock and a hard place on that because a new platform would probably run them a half a billion bucks or so.

Finally, the Voltec drivetrain involves more moving parts than the Toyota - and many more millions of lines of code (I work in software development, lines of code is not something to brag about, it's a burden) - and this is going to tend to keep Voltec unit costs higher. GM's unit margins will be subject to pressures Toyota doesn't have and this means it will take longer to recoup the development bucks. Voltec is going to go a loooong time without showing GM any profit.

The decade of investment Toyota put into HSD, which GM sneered at, is paying off. GM is no closer to real competition in the hybrid market and a long, long way from making money in gas-electric drivetrains.
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Weaslespit
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Message Posted: Jun 27, 2013 10:27:06 AM

"A) But Toyota had the good sense to price the Prius like a regular car."

Yes, the 'optioned' Prius is built so much like a regular car that nobody buys it. Where is the good sense in that?

"B) The Prius isn't missing any features I'd care about."

To each their own. Your personal preference doesn't mean that you can change the equation on cost, unless you prefer unrealistic comparisons that only suit yours.

"Did Toyota blow a billion bucks?"

Not yet. How much will they have to 'blow' to get a competitive vehicle in this segment? That remains to be seen as they fall further and further behind.

"I'd say the 2 million Priuses out there define that forest."

Straw man argument. Nice try, but the PIP would be the focus of the response since the Volt is the subject.
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Weaslespit
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Message Posted: Jun 27, 2013 10:20:52 AM

"So you have come to the realization that the Volt is uncompetitive, hence it's decline in sales?"

Despite being first on the market and approaching 3 years in service it is still the #3 seller in the segment. With the Tesla still filling multiple years of pre-orders, they have yet to prove that they will maintain current sales levels. Reference the PIP...
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Hemond
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Message Posted: Jun 27, 2013 9:33:08 AM

QUOTE ::: If GM hadn't tried to do a pretend luxury car, maybe they could have kept the price down a little. :::


Yup, despite being priced in the luxury/performance market, the Volt remains a family sedan. It competes against Civics in function yet is priced to compete against Euro sports sedans. The Volt lacks all the features a luxury buyer expects. Other than excellent acceleration in electric drive and good handling. Volt excels there.


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Shockjock1961
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Message Posted: Jun 27, 2013 8:10:18 AM

"Welcome to the free market - competition seems to have this effect."

So you have come to the realization that the Volt is uncompetitive, hence it's decline in sales?
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Shockjock1961
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Message Posted: Jun 27, 2013 8:08:48 AM

"You do realize you are further proving my point, yes?"

What? That you are making a false statemetn by comparing apples and oranges?
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beachd8
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Message Posted: Jun 27, 2013 2:41:04 AM

waiting for a full sized vehicle . . .
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Charlie_H
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Message Posted: Jun 26, 2013 11:20:43 PM

Weaslespit: "But when comparing to base Prius or Corolla (etc)... Not comparably equipped, which was the point being discussed."

A) But Toyota had the good sense to price the Prius like a regular car.
B) The Prius isn't missing any features I'd care about.
C) If GM hadn't tried to do a pretend luxury car, maybe they could have kept the price down a little. You'd think that they could have spent the decade between the introduction of the Prius and the introduction of the Volt concept observing other hybrids on the market (and their own numerous failures) and realized that "luxury" isn't one of the things buyers were likely to want; good DBFE, lower MSRP and seating for 5 would be higher priorities.

Weaslespit: "That stench comes from the entire city of Detroit through years of political greed and corruption. It is impossible to discern a particular location or source. Nice try."

It's super-special downwind from the RenCen.

Weaslespit: "Deflect from the failure of the PIP all you want. It doesn't change the fact that currently Toyota still doesn't have a plug-in EV that has any chance at selling now or in the future - regardless of you trying to minimize this fact by calling the PIP a 'option' like heated seats or power windows."

Did Toyota blow a billion bucks? No. See, for some companies, the profit motive is what drives them. For GM, it's apparently egomania that runs the show. Or maybe their advanced tech plans simply call for massive government welfare instead of products with value.

And the Volt hardly has a chance of selling now or in the future. They had to offer rkt_wgn $11.5K in government bribes and then GM tipped another load of cash into the trunk to get him to drive it away. One can only imagine the loss on that car. Sales still sagged to 1.5K or so, wayyyy down from the previous high. The trajectory on this is not good. When a test rocket has a trajectory like this, Mission Control hits the self-destruct button before it can hurt somebody.

Weaslespit: "Welcome to the free market - competition seems to have this effect. When did the next Prius competitor emerge? That's what I thought... "

One could argue, based on sales numbers, that the next Prius competitor has never emerged. However, by product type, capability and value, it's the Ford C-Max, which gets good reviews and does the job. GM still isn't in the game. Maybe Ford figures it's better to sell cars with value than rely on government bribes to move their cars.

ratso: "It's a shame the Toyo lovers cant see the forest thru the trees."

I'd say the 2 million Priuses out there define that forest.

[Edited by: Charlie_H at 6/26/2013 11:23:53 PM EST]
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Weaslespit
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Message Posted: Jun 26, 2013 8:39:21 PM

"I like your outlook rkt wgn.... The Volt is a decent car ...far better then the Toyota econoboxes they sell. It's a shame the Toyo lovers cant see the forest thru the trees."

Agreed - over 40K sales in the US alone tells the tale on that subject. Not too shabby given its pricing.
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Weaslespit
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Message Posted: Jun 26, 2013 8:36:30 PM

"The Base Volt is a stripped down model. It comes without many features which are standard on cars priced in the luxury / performance category. To wit:"

But when comparing to base Prius or Corolla (etc)... Not comparably equipped, which was the point being discussed.
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Weaslespit
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Message Posted: Jun 26, 2013 8:32:36 PM

"It seems to me, by your own admission, that you are comparing apples to oranges...."

You do realize you are further proving my point, yes?

"I might also note that sales of the Prius in the US climbed steadily, where as the Volt seems to not only have flattened, but have started to decline."

Welcome to the free market - competition seems to have this effect. When did the next Prius competitor emerge? That's what I thought...
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Weaslespit
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Message Posted: Jun 26, 2013 8:27:39 PM

"Go stand downwind from the RenCen, sometime and find out what failure smells like."

That stench comes from the entire city of Detroit through years of political greed and corruption. It is impossible to discern a particular location or source. Nice try.

Deflect from the failure of the PIP all you want. It doesn't change the fact that currently Toyota still doesn't have a plug-in EV that has any chance at selling now or in the future - regardless of you trying to minimize this fact by calling the PIP a 'option' like heated seats or power windows.
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Charlie_H
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Message Posted: Jun 26, 2013 8:41:01 AM

Shock,

Sales are out next week. I'm curious to see how the Volt does in June.

Interestingly, GM has stopped publishing production numbers, so one can no longer estimate the backlogs of GM's slow sellers.
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Charlie_H
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Message Posted: Jun 26, 2013 8:38:42 AM

Shock,

Yes, those angles have all been covered, many times. FanBoyz will make up any excuse for GM's failures.

Weaslespit,

GM has had 15 years. They send reps to the Tokyo auto show. They knew the Prius was coming in 1997. They could see that it sold steadily through the first generation. They should have been able to appreciate the idea of a car that got fantastic fuel economy. They could see what happened with the '04 model, when Toyota improved the car and sales took off. They could see what happened in '06 when a rebate kicked in and it was clear they liked that action because they beat on Congress for a rebate tailored to the Volt in '08/'09 (if KWH are good... why is the rebate capped at 16KWH?). They cashed their share of $1.25 billion in PNGV checks that Toyota didn't get.

GM has had 15 years and they still don't have a gas-electric drivetrain that they can actually sell. Go stand downwind from the RenCen, sometime and find out what failure smells like.

rkt_wgn,

It is perfectly routine for various magazines, web sites, ete, etc, to declare Car X to be the WunderCar of the Year and then for the car to be a complete commercial failure for what should have been obvious reasons. Two cars that come immediately to mind are the Chevy Citation and the '99-ish vintage Malibu. The Citation had a lot of interesting advances and initially sold well and then turned out to be such a dog on account of quality issues and cost-cutting decisions that GM abandoned it. The '99-ish Malibu was just a lump that conned everybody.

It's your money to toss. But don't tell me you're saving money by comparing the Volt to a vehicle with different capability. Run the numbers against the real competition and see how it comes out. If you paid little enough and "fuel" it mostly with electricity, it may well work out for you. If your wife likes it, that's a plus. But don't pretend this thing is a cost-saving wonder-machine that's going to do anybody else nothing but good.

[Edited by: Charlie_H at 6/26/2013 8:41:38 AM EST]
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Shockjock1961
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Message Posted: Jun 26, 2013 8:20:29 AM

I might also note that sales of the Prius in the US climbed steadily, where as the Volt seems to not only have flattened, but have started to decline. Possibly this decline might be halted by GM selling the Volt at even a bigger loss then it was before, but that remains to be seen...
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Shockjock1961
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Message Posted: Jun 26, 2013 8:16:36 AM

"Your unsubstantiated opinion, of course. You know, when gas was still $1.00 per gallon."

So you are comparing the initial sales of the Prius, when you claim gas prices were $1.00/gallon, to the slow sales of the Volt, where the gas prices were/are between $3 to $4/gallon AND the Volt was/is receiving a $7500 handout curtesy of the US taxpayer?

It seems to me, by your own admission, that you are comparing apples to oranges....
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Hemond
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Message Posted: Jun 26, 2013 7:29:21 AM

::::Personally I would not own a stripped down version of any car including any foreign or domestic ones :::

The Base Volt is a stripped down model. It comes without many features which are standard on cars priced in the luxury / performance category. To wit:

No power seats
No power sunroof
No High End sound system
No leather seats/steering wheel
No electric heated seats
No high-end mag wheels
No auto dimming mirror
No backup sonar alarm
No rear camera
No licence plate bracket
No rear center armrest
No cargo net
No Dual zone climate control
No rain sensing wipers

And finally, the battery eliminates the rear center seat, the Volt does not seat 5.

These are features which are standard on luxury priced cars, many are standard features on econoboxes. And what car doesn't come with a licence plate bracket?

To add these standard luxury features pumps up the price to $44K. My personal vehicle came with all these features standard and cost far far less than $39K
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Ratso
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Message Posted: Jun 26, 2013 6:20:31 AM

I like your outlook rkt wgn.... The Volt is a decent car ...far better then the Toyota econoboxes they sell. It's a shame the Toyo lovers cant see the forest thru the trees.
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rkt wgn
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Message Posted: Jun 26, 2013 1:35:15 AM

Sorry Charlie but I don't feel as I threw money away. Evidently you are somewhat closer with a nichol than I am. I don't worry about the price of stocks as you probably do. If I see something I want, I go buy it. Cost is not a problem with me. I have really liked the looks and technology of the volt since the first one I saw at the car show in St. Louis several years ago. Personally I would not own a stripped down version of any car including any foreign or domestic ones
I will say one thing though, it really gives me a good feeling to drive right past a gas station mainly because of the way they continue to gross enormous profits every year, and keep screwing the public with high prices and less service.
Also the car that you own did qualify for a credit on taxes in 2006. I believe it was $3150. Along with rebates
The first 3-5 years Toyota had trouble selling those econoboxes and did price cutting also. So don't jump GM for doing it.
The volt is considered by many magazines along with Edmunds and others as being one of the great vehicles of the future. Look it up on Edmunds.com. They said it is by far the best electric car going.
I will now get Down from my stool and let you and the rest of the Toyota lovers have it

Adios!
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Weaslespit
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Message Posted: Jun 25, 2013 11:43:08 PM

"Thanks for the laugh. GM has had 15 years..."

Indeed, thanks for the laugh!!! No need to read any further on that nonsense.

[Edited by: Weaslespit at 6/25/2013 11:44:13 PM EST]
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Charlie_H
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Message Posted: Jun 25, 2013 11:26:50 PM

"Irrelevant. Toyota had 8 years to make improvements. You don't seem to
want to give GM 8 months..."

Thanks for the laugh. GM has had 15 years... that's how long it has been since gas-electric drivetrains went into mass production. That's 15 years to develop, to analyze markes and, most importantly, to learn from the mistakes of others. GM could look at why the G1 Prius didn't sell and learn from it. Instead, they developed several lines of unwanted hybrids.

After more than a decade, they bragged on and brought out yet another slow-selling vehicle, burdened by massive development costs. It's brilliance in action, for sure. GM got massive government aid and they have trouble matching Ford.

"The only laughable comparison I have seen here is your silly statement about a '13 Tahoe..."

You should get over to GM-Volt dot COM more often. They're full of laughs like that. They just don't know how funny they are.
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Weaslespit
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Message Posted: Jun 25, 2013 10:28:25 PM

"Just 4 years after they started to sell here."

Irrelevant. Toyota had 8 years to make improvements. You don't seem to want to give GM 8 months...

"If one can get buy with the teeny-trunked, 4-seat, non-towing Volt, one clearly didn't need the Theta."

Are you certain it wasn't needed when it was originally purchased? You seem to know a lot about rkt's past and present needs.

Again, I suggest you read Matthew 7:1.

"If you put up laughable comparisons on cost savings, don't be surprised when people laugh."

The only laughable comparison I have seen here is your silly statement about a '13 Tahoe...
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Charlie_H
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Message Posted: Jun 25, 2013 10:09:18 PM

rkt_wgn: "True they would have saved lots, but they would be driving a mazda2"

I've driven the 2; they're nice little cars, economical and reliable. Of course, if someone doesn't care for them, someone could have had a Cruze. They're not a bad car, they get pretty good fuel economy, they seat 5, they cost less than a Theta and they are built in Lordstown. The Focus and Fiesta are also good choices. Or Corolla or a Civic built in America is an awfully good car.

Seriously, even if the Theta is an underperforming lump in its class (and it sells well because the Chevy clientele skews to large vehicles, not because it's actually any good), it's still laughable to talk about how much money one's saving by buying a Volt when one's simply been throwing one's money away for years. If one can get buy with the teeny-trunked, 4-seat, non-towing Volt, one clearly didn't need the Theta.

Weaslespit: "Sure, 8 years after it debuted. Nice point... "

Just 4 years after they started to sell here. And the point remains; when the incentive kicked in, less than HALF of what is lavished upon the Volt, sales went crazy. Without state help, GM's additional rebates or subvented leases or dancing girls, the $7500 from the Feds alone should be causing Volts to fly off the lots.

Yet, it does not happen. Of course, without the $7500, they wouldn't move at all.

rkt_wgn: "Only thing is why don't the toyota owners/drivers leave the people alone who like the cars they own/drive, and go where the people care what they have to say. Why do they have to go to a Chevy Volt page to complain."

If you like the car, fine. If you post about it, you invite comment. If you put up laughable comparisons on cost savings, don't be surprised when people laugh. You got an involuntary gift from the rest of us to help you get that car and if the rest of us question the value of that gift, well, that's perfectly reasonable.
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Jun 25, 2013 8:48:34 PM

"What's too prove?"

Your unsubstantiated opinion, of course. You know, when gas was still $1.00 per gallon.

Remember, the Prius was a VERY homely looking car for quite some time...
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Jun 25, 2013 8:46:50 PM

"a commuter car and he was wasting his money with one of those overweight, under-performing Thetas."

Which are (still) the best selling vehicles in their segment. But you digress...

"But we do reserve the right to point out the folly of their choices."

Matthew 7:1

"Once you've decided you are better off with new (for whatever reason), you evaluate the alternatives against each other and you include your opportunity costs."

Of course, you are confusing the point that there is more than just one variable in that equation as well (besides cost). I believe rkt also corrected you on a portion of the 'cost' variable with regards to the options on the Volt that are not available at the price point you choose to reference. You do seem to not understand the term 'comparably equipped'.

"The Prius G2 was selling steadily in '05, because it was a pretty good car with lots of capability and very good fuel economy."

Sure, 8 years after it debuted. Nice point...
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rkt wgn
Champion Author St. Louis

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Message Posted: Jun 25, 2013 5:40:51 PM

True they would have saved lots, but they would be driving a mazda2 And to be truthful with you, I would rather have the gas hog than a mazda. I am not a foreign car lover. I have only owned one foreign car in my life, and it was a piece of crap.
For the life of me I cant understand why so many toyota owners want to roam over to a chevy page to do their complaining about how good or mostly how bad they think a Volt is. Not once have I even looked at the Toyota forum, as i really don't care about them.
As I also said before, my son-in-law had a 2006 Prius, which he bought new, he asked to drive our Volt several times, and before three months had gone by, he bought a new Volt. I asked him why he decided to go that route, and he said that he thought the volt drove better, had nicer interior, was quieter, got better mileage, and was a much better looking car. I have known him about 5-6 years, and not once did I ever say anything bad about his car, even though I did not care for it, and I also did not push him into buying the Volt. He did this all on his own.

So as I have said many times, people can do what they want, I don't really care, and I will do as I please, which you probably don't care.
Only thing is why don't the toyota owners/drivers leave the people alone who like the cars they own/drive, and go where the people care what they have to say. Why do they have to go to a Chevy Volt page to complain.

Nuff said!!
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Shockjock1961
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Jun 25, 2013 5:32:40 PM

"Prove it."

What's too prove? Take off $7500 off the retail price of a new 2005 Prius and you wind up with a mid-size car that got 50mpg for the price of a Corolla... Thye would have sold like hot cakes...
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Charlie_H
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Jun 25, 2013 5:22:51 PM

"I didn't realize that the Terrain and Prius were in the same segment? Interesting... <S>"

Yep. The F-150 Office Worker Edition is in this segment, too, "Commuter Cars." If rkt_wgn was able to replace a Terrain with a Volt, then all he needed was a commuter car and he was wasting his money with one of those overweight, under-performing Thetas. But this is America and we don't require people to buy sensible cars. But we do reserve the right to point out the folly of their choices.

"Here's what you wouldn't do. You wouldn't compare the Volt to a car that you didn't own, say a Prius, when your daily driver was a Terrain and say 'gee, I would only save $.50/day by driving the Volt'."

You confuse the "Keep/Purchase-Used/Purchase-New decision" with the "What-to-Purchase" decision. Once you've decided you are better off with new (for whatever reason), you evaluate the alternatives against each other and you include your opportunity costs.

"Prove it [incentives would have sold more hybrids]."

You're kidding, right? You can look at history... The Prius G2 was selling steadily in '05, because it was a pretty good car with lots of capability and very good fuel economy. It was a sensible transportation appliance. When incentives hit in '06, lines to obtain the car went around the block. Nor could Ford keep the Escape hybrids in stock. The only hybrids that didn't sell well were GM's pitiful BAS units and hyper-priced two-mode vehicles (which still qualified as gas guzzlers).
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Jun 25, 2013 4:28:53 PM

"If you had bought a Prius back when you bought the Terrain, you'd now have a paid-for Prius and something like $2K in the bank for every year you used the Terrain for commuting."

I didn't realize that the Terrain and Prius were in the same segment? Interesting... <S>

"If I had that commute and I looked at a Volt today, I wouldn't compare it to a 2013 Chevy Tahoe and think, "gee, I could save $10/day by driving the Volt,"

You would if you wanted to buy a Volt and your current car was a '13 Tahoe...

Here's what you wouldn't do. You wouldn't compare the Volt to a car that you didn't own, say a Prius, when your daily driver was a Terrain and say 'gee, I would only save $.50/day by driving the Volt'.
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Jun 25, 2013 4:18:40 PM

"If the first hybrids got the same taxpayer handouts the Volt enjoys, sales would not have started off slow..."

Prove it.
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Charlie_H
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Jun 25, 2013 2:50:52 PM

"The car we traded in was a 4 cyl Terrain, which would get about 23.5-24 mpg."

If you had bought a Prius back when you bought the Terrain, you'd now have a paid-for Prius and something like $2K in the bank for every year you used the Terrain for commuting.

So, yes, compared to a previously bad choice for a commuter vehicle, the Volt is great. Compared to the other options, not so hot.

If I had that commute and I looked at a Volt today, I wouldn't compare it to a 2013 Chevy Tahoe and think, "gee, I could save $10/day by driving the Volt," I'd check the Prius or some other high-mpg cars to see how they compare to each other. At MSRP or even MSRP - Federal Tax Credit, the Prius is usually still the winner. Lately, given the sharp discounting on the Volt, the situation does become more murky and which car costs least to drive may depend on how much and what kind of driving you do (as in my case).

Yet, people who buy Volts often happily compare expenses with their previous gas hogs (examples include GMC Yukons and Ford F-150s) and talk about the massive savings they now get with their Volt. If these people cared about the cost of fuel (or the environment or supporting oil dictatorships or whatever), why were they driving those gas guzzlers in the first place? Even if they did, they certainly had other alternatives; they could have bought a Mazda 2 for $14K, banked half the cost of the Volt payments and cut their fuel bills by 50%.
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rkt wgn
Champion Author St. Louis

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Message Posted: Jun 25, 2013 2:14:45 PM

My wife drove about 40 miles each way to work until she retired. the first 40 miles used no gas, just the last 40. In those 40 miles she used 1 gal of fuel. So daily she would use 1 gal of gas to go 80 miles, or in other words, she got 80 mpg that day. The car we traded in was a 4 cyl Terrain, which would get about 23.5-24 mpg. She would use right at 3-3.5 gal of gas daily to go the same distance. In other words, it cost right at $8.00- $9.00 a day more to drive than the Volt. some times 5 days, sometimes 6 days, she went to work. between $40 to $54 a week more. $160-$$216 a month more just to drive to work.

You mention ed Ins premiums. The Volt is cheaper to insure than the Terrain was, even though it was $10,000.00 higher priced. small savings, but cheaper. The Terrain was listed to have oil changes every 5,000 to 6,000 miles. The Volt is recommended to change oil at 24,000 or 2 years. I currently have almost 17,000 miles on the Volt, and the mfg computer says I still have 37 % oil life left. Partly because of the electric miles don't use the engine. I called the dealer about this and he said it was ok to go almost that far. He said to change with about 15% on the computer. My caddy is scheduled for changes at 8-10,000 miles or 1 time a year.

next, it is recommended to use premium fuel. At .30 a gal dif, it adds about $2.50 for a fill up of over 8 gal. Tank only holds 9.3 gal. I can go over 300 miles so that amounts to a penny a mile. big deal on premium gas. :)

Pros and Cons. I still love my Volt, and I am sure you still love the prius.
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Shockjock1961
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Jun 25, 2013 2:11:12 PM

"The first hybrids were pretty slow sellers at first too..."

If the first hybrids got the same taxpayer handouts the Volt enjoys, sales would not have started off slow...
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