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Author Topic: For or against red light cameras? Back to Topics
yodudebc

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Vancouver

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Message Posted: Oct 10, 2011 3:03:40 PM

I've seen people stop short to avoid venturing into an amber and get rear-ended.
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Fish2tail
All-Star Author Kalamazoo

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Message Posted: Apr 25, 2015 7:52:01 PM

Against
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heyman_31036
Veteran Author Georgia

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Message Posted: Apr 22, 2015 8:46:40 AM

against
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Manolo1
Champion Author Miami

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Message Posted: Apr 22, 2015 8:40:56 AM

The biggest problem with the theory that red-light cameras prevent side-impact collisions is one that is rarely ever addressed—what’s the mechanism by which this allegedly occurs?

Let’s look at the pro-RLC argument. Camera supporters claim that by putting up ticketing cameras, drivers will “adjust their behavior” or “drive more carefully” around the cameras, making the intersections safer. They never go beyond that explanation.
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Manolo1
Champion Author Miami

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Message Posted: Apr 22, 2015 8:40:42 AM

So let’s try to answer the question of how red-light cameras perform their magic. What behavior is being changed or in what way are motorists driving more carefully?

Red-light cameras only target one type of behavior—when a driver could have stopped with a safe and comfortable deceleration rate but instead chooses to “gun it” to try to make it through so they don’t have to stop for the light. I think it’s silly to pretend that this doesn’t happen. It unquestionably does. But not to the extent that many think and usually only when a driver is within the indecision zone. It’s very unlikely that a driver further than about 5-6 seconds travel time to the intersection will try to make it. So the driver who exhibits the behavior targeted by the red-light cameras will, if they fail, run the light by a fraction of a second.
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Manolo1
Champion Author Miami

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Message Posted: Apr 22, 2015 8:40:27 AM

What’s the effect of this? First, let’s consider a driver who does not run the light but crosses the limit line a fraction of a second before the light turns red. In states with a permissive yellow law (meaning that if your vehicle breaks the plane of the intersection before the light turns red, you have not committed a violation, even if the light turns red while you’re still in the intersection) this is perfectly legal. If there’s no all-red clearance interval, cross traffic could start up before this driver makes it across the intersection. Even then, due to start-up delay, there’s unlikely to be a collision, but it could happen, especially if a driver approaching from the cross street sees the light changing ahead and enters the intersection at speed.

Now consider the red-light runner who crosses the limit line a fraction of a second after the light turns red because he decided to go when he could have stopped. What is the practical difference between this driver and the one above? Nothing. That fraction of a second probably has no more likelihood of causing a collision. There is very little, if any, difference in crash exposure due to these two types of drivers.
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Manolo1
Champion Author Miami

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Message Posted: Apr 22, 2015 8:40:13 AM

Of course, with a sufficient all-red clearance interval both of these types of collisions will be avoided.

So let’s say that red-light cameras are 100 percent effective in changing the behavior of the driver who decides to push the yellow (which they are not). What have we accomplished by changing this behavior? Nothing. It’s just not possible to eliminate side impact collisions by scaring drivers into not pushing the yellow because they aren’t the cause of these collisions in the first place.

Now there’s a special case where this could make a difference. With a permissive left turn signal, drivers turning left might think an oncoming driver is going to stop, so they make the turn in front of the oncoming vehicle. The vehicle doesn’t stop and a collision occurs. Of course this can also happen in the scenario where the driver doesn’t run the light and crosses the limit line just before the light turns red. It’s likely that many collisions which are tagged as red-light running collisions are actually ones in which the left-turning driver jumped the gun and then claims the oncoming driver ran the red.

The way to avoid the left turn opposed collision is to have a protected left turn lane and signal. This prevents this type of collision 100 percent of the time.
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Manolo1
Champion Author Miami

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Message Posted: Apr 22, 2015 8:39:58 AM

As for crashes caused by late-into-red red entries, they are due to the driver not recognizing the light is red. Red-light cameras can’t prevent this from happening either so they can’t be effective in reducing or eliminating them.

I’m also not dealing with the length of the yellow light here because I’ll assume for the sake of argument that it is long enough for the vast majority of drivers in the vast majority of situations to either stop or go appropriately.

So I go back to the original question that red-light camera proponents and “researchers” who claim the data show even a modest reduction in red-light running collisions due to red-light cameras are never asked to answer. What’s the mechanism by which red-light cameras have supposedly reduced these collisions?

Their answer is usually the same as the punchline to this famous Sidney Harris cartoon: “Then a miracle occurs.”
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eB40
Champion Author Maryland

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Message Posted: Apr 20, 2015 11:43:11 AM

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contiki
Champion Author Ontario

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Message Posted: Apr 16, 2015 2:34:43 PM

Depends on location........
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Manolo1
Champion Author Miami

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Message Posted: Apr 16, 2015 11:55:26 AM

Texas Supreme Court Rejects Red-Light Camera Arguments
A red-light camera court case has yet to reach the highest court in Texas, but justices have recently issued a pair of orders that dealt a setback to the automated ticketing industry. Last week, the judges denied the request of attorneys for American Traffic Solution (ATS) who begged the Supreme Court to intervene in an upcoming election to prevent residents of Arlington from voting on a red-light camera ban.
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Manolo1
Champion Author Miami

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Message Posted: Apr 16, 2015 11:53:47 AM

Class Action Lawsuit Against Florida Red-Light Cameras Heats Up
The shoe was on the other foot throughout Florida last week as process servers knocked on the doors of municipalities to tell city officials that they were being sued for running a red-light camera program against state law. The US District Court for the Southern District of Florida consolidated cases against eighty-one towns and photo ticketing operators American Traffic Solutions (ATS), Xerox and Gatso of The Netherlands.
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2Tall
Champion Author Maryland

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Message Posted: Apr 13, 2015 10:14:23 AM

against
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MeTaBall
Champion Author Maryland

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Message Posted: Apr 9, 2015 4:55:56 PM

For
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eB40
Champion Author Maryland

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Message Posted: Apr 6, 2015 3:11:42 PM

Against
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Manolo1
Champion Author Miami

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Message Posted: Apr 2, 2015 5:56:16 PM

California: Longer Yellows Cut Violations In Half
Cities frequently cite reductions in accidents at red-light camera intersections as evidence that the devices are a valuable public safety tool. Behind the scenes, however, jurisdictions often implement engineering improvements that can have a big impact and are actually responsible for those numbers. Evidence for this can be found in Santa Clarita, California where the city council decided Tuesday to drop red-light cameras in a 3 to 2 vote.
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hoopitup2000
Champion Author Virginia

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Message Posted: Apr 2, 2015 6:26:10 AM

Against!!
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noblegiant
Champion Author Philadelphia

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Message Posted: Apr 1, 2015 10:33:22 PM

Against! Note: See Below For The Very Same Reason
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Manolo1
Champion Author Miami

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Message Posted: Apr 1, 2015 10:06:55 PM

The biggest problem with the theory that red-light cameras prevent side-impact collisions is one that is rarely ever addressed—what’s the mechanism by which this allegedly occurs?
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Manolo1
Champion Author Miami

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Message Posted: Apr 1, 2015 10:06:07 PM

The Chicago Tribune performed an independent safety analysis of the city’s extensive red-light camera network. The study concluded that “the cameras do not reduce injury-related crashes overall—undercutting Mayor Rahm Emanuel’s primary defense of a program beset by mismanagement, malfunction and a $2 million bribery scandal.” The study also found that the city’s claims of a 47 percent decrease in side-impact collisions was grossly overstated and that rear-end collisions actually increased.
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eB40
Champion Author Maryland

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Message Posted: Apr 1, 2015 5:39:55 PM

Against
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Manolo1
Champion Author Miami

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Message Posted: Mar 27, 2015 10:10:56 PM

National Standard Heads Toward Longer Yellow Times
Red-light camera use has been on the decline nationwide, and the industry’s woes are set to worsen. The Institute of Transportation Engineers (ITE) is circulating proposed changes to its yellow signal timing formula that will give motorists more time to stop at intersections without getting a ticket in the mail.
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Manolo1
Champion Author Miami

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Message Posted: Mar 27, 2015 10:10:41 PM

Redflex US Chief Calls It Quits
The man brought in to rescue the US division of Redflex Traffic Systems from a corruption scandal and looming bankruptcy announced his resignation on Monday. James Saunders, who held the title of president and CEO of the American subsidiary of the Australian firm, will leave no later than June 30.
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Manolo1
Champion Author Miami

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Message Posted: Mar 27, 2015 10:09:39 PM

Texas: Red-Light Camera Firm Makes Second Attempt To Block Vote
American Traffic Solutions (ATS) will not take “no” for an answer. Earlier this month, a Tarrant County, Texas district court judge rejected the company’s attempt to stop Arlington residents from voting on May 9 about whether red-light cameras should stay or go. On Tuesday, ATS lawyer Andy Taylor filed an emergency petition challenging Judge Tom Lowe’s March 3 decision saying he had no jurisdiction in the matter.
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billycar
All-Star Author Phoenix

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Message Posted: Mar 24, 2015 2:34:36 PM

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eB40
Champion Author Maryland

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Message Posted: Mar 24, 2015 2:12:14 PM

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contiki
Champion Author Ontario

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Message Posted: Mar 20, 2015 10:44:34 AM

My wife and myself, with me behind the wheel had our picture taken at a red light camera here in town......

My wife was worried that we would get a ticket in the mail but we never did because it was just after a snow storm and traffic was having a problem get around on roads that were snowy and slippery......

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EZEd
Champion Author Birmingham

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Message Posted: Mar 20, 2015 10:05:33 AM

Imagine that! A traffic camera that was "not installed for safety purposes." In my opinion, this phrase describes *ALL* red light cameras. They are for revenue enhancement, pure and simple.

If you truly want to make intersections safer, at NO COST, here's how to do it:

National Standard Heads Toward Longer Yellow Times

It costs nothing but the time of a traffic engineer to set a longer yellow light duration. It costs nothing from motorists pockets. But it doesn't generate revenue. And it can't be exploited by crooked, for-profit red light camera companies.
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Manolo1
Champion Author Miami

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Message Posted: Mar 19, 2015 7:32:37 PM

Florida Considers Red-Light Camera Reform
As the tide continues to turn against red-light cameras nationwide, Florida lawmakers are considering scaling back their statewide program. The Highway and Waterway Safety Subcommittee last Wednesday approved a measure that would ban automated ticketing of rolling right turns on red and address a handful of minor concerns.
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Manolo1
Champion Author Miami

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Message Posted: Mar 19, 2015 7:32:08 PM

Iowa DOT Cracks Down On Profit-Driven Speed Cameras
The Iowa Department of Transportation (DOT) wants ten of the thirty-four traffic cameras in use on state roads to come down. Officials reviewed documentation supplied by Cedar Rapids, Council Bluffs, Davenport, Des Moines, Muscatine and Sioux City and concluded on Tuesday that too many were not installed for safety purposes.
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cDagasGo
Champion Author Maryland

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Message Posted: Mar 18, 2015 10:50:43 PM

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GasMiser718
Champion Author Detroit

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Message Posted: Mar 14, 2015 11:02:32 PM

For, there already running the yellow. So give them a ticket for running the red!!!
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Manolo1
Champion Author Miami

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Message Posted: Mar 13, 2015 12:10:00 PM

2 courts, 2 opposite results
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Manolo1
Champion Author Miami

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Message Posted: Mar 13, 2015 12:09:35 PM

Louisiana Court Of Appeal Approves Anti-Redflex Lawsuit
Opponents of automated ticketing machines in Jefferson Parish, Louisiana have been given a second chance at taking down the program. The state Court of Appeal last year reversed a lower court judge who attempted to block class action lawsuit against the parish and Redflex Traffic Systems, the Australian company in charge of the program that issues citations worth up to $175 each. The state Supreme Court allowed this decision to stand as final.
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Manolo1
Champion Author Miami

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Message Posted: Mar 13, 2015 12:09:19 PM

California Court of Appeal Blocks Red-Light Camera Lawsuit
California motorists may not sue cities for violating their constitutional rights with red-light cameras, according to a ruling last week by the state Court of Appeal. A three-judge panel threw out a class action lawsuit claiming that the photo ticketing system undermined the confrontation, due process and equal protection clauses of the US Constitution.
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cujo1977
Champion Author Nashville

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Message Posted: Mar 8, 2015 9:02:53 PM

Y
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ChillyVee
Sophomore Author Los Angeles

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Message Posted: Mar 8, 2015 8:56:06 PM

Not a fan, though they can't be enforced here in CA
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Manolo1
Champion Author Miami

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Message Posted: Mar 6, 2015 7:17:43 PM

Florida: Appellate Ruling Hits Cities, Traffic Camera Firm
The Florida cities that use red-light cameras, and their vendors, are realizing the full impact of having the courts turn against them. Last October, the state Court of Appeals reversed its previously held position and decided that the outsourcing of traffic ticket issuance and review to private, for-profit companies could not be tolerated.
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Manolo1
Champion Author Miami

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Message Posted: Mar 6, 2015 7:17:16 PM

Texas: Judge Rejects Traffic Camera Company Attempt To Block Public Vote
A Tarrant County, Texas judge on Tuesday did not buy the argument of a red-light camera company that the public had no right to vote on whether cameras should be used in their community. American Traffic Solutions (ATS) filed for an emergency injunction last week in an attempt to keep the residents of Arlington from casting a ballot in the upcoming May election on the subject of automated ticketing. The Arizona-based firm found someone local who claimed he would suffer injury if fellow residents were allowed to vote.
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eB40
Champion Author Maryland

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Message Posted: Mar 6, 2015 4:07:41 PM

Against
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toms1120
Champion Author Maryland

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Message Posted: Mar 2, 2015 9:08:45 AM

For
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Manolo1
Champion Author Miami

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Message Posted: Feb 26, 2015 3:13:20 PM

California Cities Continue To Dump Red-Light Cameras
Red-light cameras are on their way out in California. To date, more than sixty towns in the Golden State have sent the private, for-profit companies that run the automated ticketing programs packing. On February 27, the cameras in Stockton will be coming down after the city quietly terminated the contract with Redflex Traffic Systems of Australia.
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MeTaBall
Champion Author Maryland

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Message Posted: Feb 24, 2015 6:25:18 PM

Against
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justinemt14
Champion Author Philadelphia

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Message Posted: Feb 19, 2015 9:59:05 PM

Strongly against.
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Manolo1
Champion Author Miami

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Message Posted: Feb 19, 2015 8:23:41 PM

California: Appellate Red-Light Camera Ruling Worries Redflex
One of California’s largest providers of red-light camera systems believes a recent Court of Appeal decision spells trouble for the industry. The state’s second-highest court found that proof of improper calibration was enough to cast doubt on an automated ticketing machine’s reliability. Redflex Traffic Systems of Australia asked the state Supreme Court to “depublish” the California v. Rekte decision, effectively erasing it from the books.
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subielover2014
Rookie Author Allentown

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Message Posted: Feb 18, 2015 2:58:53 PM

For.Watch your driving and you don't have to worry.
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BigHorne1
Champion Author Missouri

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Message Posted: Feb 17, 2015 9:42:38 AM

always against
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2Tall
Champion Author Maryland

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Message Posted: Feb 17, 2015 9:12:05 AM

against
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Tucsonhomes
Champion Author Tucson

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Message Posted: Feb 12, 2015 11:19:44 AM

I'm not a big fan, but red light running is a major problem
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Manolo1
Champion Author Miami

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Message Posted: Feb 12, 2015 10:55:23 AM

Red-Light Camera Profits Continue To Tumble
Red-light camera vendor Redflex Traffic Systems saw its stock plummet more than 16 percent overnight as news of its dismal financial performance hit investors. The company on Thursday formally announced a $10 million trading loss for the financial year, even though the company had previously said it would break even.
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toms1120
Champion Author Maryland

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Message Posted: Feb 9, 2015 5:39:01 PM

For
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cDagasGo
Champion Author Maryland

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Message Posted: Feb 3, 2015 8:03:40 PM

I agree with FuelPump...
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