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Author Topic: Here Come the GM Hybrids!! Back to Topics
detfan

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Message Posted: Feb 21, 2008 7:17:11 AM

GM, has steadily been improving and increasing its hybrid technology, first being used in buses back in 2002. Early automotive hybrids, on the Saturn Aura and Chevy Malibu have been of the "mild" type -- not too much additional price, and not too much additional mileage. Playing catchup to the Prius and others, it now seems GM is getting in the game to dominate.

Enter the first two-stage hybrids, appropriately being introduced on GM's gas guzzling Tahoe and Yukon. The mileage ratings on these are 50% higher than their standard counterparts giving them the same city mileage as a 4 cyl. mid sized sedan. However, as the link below indicates, like my 2008 Malibu LTZ, the Tahoe tested is getting 25% better mileage than its EPA Ratings, getting 26.3 mpg!!

GM says they will be releasing new hybrids every three or four months, for the next few years. The 2009 Chevy Silverado and GMC Sierra will have this same technology. The Saturn Vue will, also, and then also be available as a plug-in hybrid. Its going to be interesting watching the progress and gauging the success of each model.
Chevy Tahoe Two-Stage Hybrid Road Test
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Weaslespit
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Message Posted: Apr 24, 2014 1:38:31 PM

Hello people - the steering wheel does not lock unless you put the car in the "Off" position, not "Accessory", from the "Run" position...

Regarding brakes - try pumping the brake pedal with your foot with the car off, see what happens. I bet you'll find that the calipers engage the rotor, but do not disengage when the foot is removed from the brake.

Yes, you will lose the assist to the steering which is a bit disorienting, there is no denying that. I don't think that contributed to excessive speeding and dunk driving, however...

There is simply no denying that speed, alcohol and a lack of seat belts also influenced the outcomes of many of these incidents. Yes, the airbags 'might' have helped, but you can't fix stupid...

GM should be held accountable by the US Government for failing to address this remote failure, just like it did with Toyota.

Now we will see people coming out of the woodwork just like the vultures who started circling Toyota, clouding the facts.
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Charlie_H
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Apr 24, 2014 1:36:33 PM

I understand the difference between power brakes and non-power brakes.
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Apr 24, 2014 1:21:07 PM

"Or did most of these cars come without power brakes?"

So you are saying you don't know how the braking system works. Got it ;)
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Apr 24, 2014 1:20:25 PM

"Maybe people should accept that GM bears a lot of responsibility here."

Yes, people shouldn't take any responsibility for the actions that actually caused the crashes in the first place. How dumb would that be...

No sarcasm there either.

"Why? Planning a trip to the Twin Cities?"

Nope - just thinking of your fellow Minneapolins. Unlike some here, I'm not always looking out for #1 ;)
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contiki
Champion Author Ontario

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Message Posted: Apr 24, 2014 1:19:07 PM

This is how this thread stay alive....as they talk about ignition switches instead of GM Hybrids..........

There are many topics on GM ignition switches on this forum..............

The thread needs to die......nothing interesting ever posted anymore.......

Same old posters arguments..............over and over again........



[Edited by: contiki at 4/24/2014 1:20:52 PM EST]
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Charlie_H
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Apr 24, 2014 1:15:42 PM

"Point of order - there is no loss of braking."

As I understand it, you lose the power assist.

Or did most of these cars come without power brakes?
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Shockjock1961
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Message Posted: Apr 24, 2014 1:13:53 PM

"The congresswoman held up an ignition switch for one of the cars and said a small spring inside of it failed to provide enough force, causing the car engines to turn off when they went over a bump. DeGette showed how easy it was for a light set of keys to move the ignition out of the "run" position. That can cause the engine to stall, and the driver loses power steering and power brakes"
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Shockjock1961
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Message Posted: Apr 24, 2014 1:13:04 PM

"What was to be a simple shopping excursion turned into a death trap as their vehicle, without any warning, lost power," he said. "The steering wheel lockes, power breaks, no longer worked and the safety airbags were turned off. When all of this happened the car followed a path off the road, went airborne over an adjoining driveway, crushed a phone box, and tragically collided with a group of trees."
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Apr 24, 2014 1:09:18 PM

"Not true. Sudden loss of power can be surprising enough to cause an accident. Some may have trouble compensating for the sudden lack of power for steering or braking."

Point of order - there is no loss of braking.
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Apr 24, 2014 1:08:31 PM

"Hmmm... A defect that causes loss of engine power, power steering and power brakes, locks the steering wheel and disables the Air bags, should not have caused any accidents? I think you are mistaken..."

You have just shown you don't know what you are talking about. Thanks ;)
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Shockjock1961
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Message Posted: Apr 24, 2014 1:06:57 PM

"This defect should not have caused any accidents. Bottom-line."

Hmmm... A defect that causes loss of engine power, power steering and power brakes, locks the steering wheel and disables the Air bags, should not have caused any accidents? I think you are mistaken...

"Anybody injured or killed should look at why the accident occurred - driver error (either by the driver of the GM vehicle or the actions of another driver)."

If it's completely driver error, then why is GM correcting the issue?
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Charlie_H
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Apr 24, 2014 9:16:13 AM

Weaslespit: "This defect should not have caused any accidents. Bottom-line."

Not true. Sudden loss of power can be surprising enough to cause an accident. Some may have trouble compensating for the sudden lack of power for steering or braking. Attempting to get the car restarted or just the surprise could divert attention and cause an accident.

Weaslespit: "There is also a lesson to be learned for all drivers - ignitions switches can only bear so much weight, so take some personal responsibility and lighten the load..."

Right. Everybody needs to take the 10 lbs of fishing weights off their keychains.

Note: That's sarcasm.

Maybe people should accept that GM bears a lot of responsibility here.

Note: That's not sarcasm.

Weaslespit: "The GM haters are starting to sound more and more Liberal [?} as the days go by, and seem to be forgetting the very things they said about SUA in protection of Toyota."

Could they start sounding like the GM FanBois where were railing about Toyota's SUA? Of course, it would be quite a challenge to get to that level.

Weaslespit: "The discussion doesn't belong in this thread, but as long as people are going to post about it, I am going to respond in-kind."

Then, enjoy!

Weaslespit: "Posted any gas prices yet?"

Why? Planning a trip to the Twin Cities?
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Bridge2012
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Message Posted: Apr 24, 2014 9:08:27 AM

No
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Apr 24, 2014 9:05:54 AM

"You don't get to screw up engineering a part of the car that involves the passive occupant protection systems, ignore the problem for several years and skate away with no consequences."

You do in America - although I do expect a stiff fine from the NHTSA.

"Not much, except Weaslespit seems to like discussing it"

The discussion doesn't belong in this thread, but as long as people are going to post about it, I am going to respond in-kind.

Posted any gas prices yet?
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Apr 24, 2014 9:03:29 AM

"Not all who were affected by the defect were drunk.."

Who said that they were?

"Which is the reason GM is shirking it's responsibility by trying to block the litigation of those who were affected by an admitted safety defect."

Drunk drivers should sue Jim Beam (et al) then as well since their product contributed to their accidents...

This defect should not have caused any accidents. Bottom-line.

Anybody injured or killed should look at why the accident occurred - driver error (either by the driver of the GM vehicle or the actions of another driver). There is also a lesson to be learned for all drivers - ignitions switches can only bear so much weight, so take some personal responsibility and lighten the load...

The GM haters are starting to sound more and more Liberal as the days go by, and seem to be forgetting the very things they said about SUA in protection of Toyota.

I do blame GM for not being proactive in issuing a recall for this years ago and would fully support a fine from the NHTSA similar to what Toyota received. Too bad it takes exposure like this to generate change, but that seems to be the way Capitalism works. Hopefully other OEM's will audit their own Safety culture to ensure it is up to snuff so as to avoid repeating the lessons taught most recently by GM and Toyota.
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mhradecky
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Message Posted: Apr 23, 2014 3:40:51 PM

Sounds good to me.
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Shockjock1961
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Message Posted: Apr 23, 2014 3:08:58 PM

Not all who were affected by the defect were drunk..

Which is the reason GM is shirking it's responsibility by trying to block the litigation of those who were affected by an admitted safety defect.

"That's right. There are no guarantees in life, one of them being that your air bag might not deploy. You don't get to do something stupid and then blame somebody else for the outcome"

When there is a safety defect, you absolutely can. There are several examples of just that. No reason GM should be exempt...
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Charlie_H
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Message Posted: Apr 23, 2014 3:03:55 PM

Weaslespit: "GM haters - what does this ignition switch recall have to do with GM hybrids? ;)"

Not much, except Weaslespit seems to like discussing it. For GM FanBois, as bad as the recall situation is, it looks better than the outcome of GM's various hybrid programs.
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Charlie_H
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Apr 23, 2014 3:02:17 PM

Weaslespit: "That's right. There are no guarantees in life, one of them being that your air bag might not deploy. You don't get to do something stupid and then blame somebody else for the outcome."

You don't get to screw up engineering a part of the car that involves the passive occupant protection systems, ignore the problem for several years and skate away with no consequences.

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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Apr 23, 2014 2:56:33 PM

"No, I'm blaming GM for airbags that don't deploy to protect people, drunk sober or otherwise. You seem to think the condition of the driver somehow mitigates GM's failure to provide passive occupant protection systems that actually protect the occupants."

That's right. There are no guarantees in life, one of them being that your air bag might not deploy. You don't get to do something stupid and then blame somebody else for the outcome.

"Weaslespit: "GM haters - what does this ignition switch recall have to do with GM hybrids? ;)"

"Charlie: Not much"

'Nuff said.
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Apr 23, 2014 2:52:25 PM

"Not all who were affected by the defect were drunk..."

Exactly. Hence the statement;

"(where many of the drivers made poor choices such as drunk driving...)."
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Shockjock1961
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Message Posted: Apr 23, 2014 2:07:42 PM

" unless you are trying to drag in the pending litigation that GM will probably be protected from (where many of the drivers made poor choices such as drunk driving...)."

Strawman...

Not all who were affected by the defect were drunk...

[Edited by: Shockjock1961 at 4/23/2014 2:09:15 PM EST]
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Charlie_H
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Apr 23, 2014 1:57:34 PM

Weaslespit: "And even with them, people still die in accidents. You really blaming GM for a drunk driver hitting a tree at 55 and dying? Slippery slope, kid."

No, I'm blaming GM for airbags that don't deploy to protect people, drunk sober or otherwise. You seem to think the condition of the driver somehow mitigates GM's failure to provide passive occupant protection systems that actually protect the occupants.

This reminds me of their vaunted OnStar accident notification system. A GM exec was asked if it would still work if the electrical system was damaged during the accident. "Uhhh... maybe not." This is the kind of feature that, in order to be meaningful, should be designed to commercial aircraft black box specs. Fat chance. GM didn't engineer it for that, they engineered it for marketing and the illusion of protection.

Weaslespit: "GM haters - what does this ignition switch recall have to do with GM hybrids? ;)"

Not much, although the early GM non-selling, highly expensive, completely ineffective BAS hybrids might use this part. If you're concerned about the relevance, don't post about it.
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Weaslespit
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Message Posted: Apr 23, 2014 1:36:21 PM

GM haters - what does this ignition switch recall have to do with GM hybrids? ;)

Gotta love fanboys continuing with the status quo...
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Weaslespit
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Message Posted: Apr 23, 2014 1:34:13 PM

"Sure looks likes they are trying to shirk their responsibility to me..."

Read again, then post;

"Strange, since GM is recalling all of these vehicles. They don't seem to be shirking responsibility at all - unless you are trying to drag in the pending litigation that GM will probably be protected from (where many of the drivers made poor choices such as drunk driving...)."
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Apr 23, 2014 1:33:08 PM

"Oh? How often do you buy gas in the Twin Cities?"

Apparently, I am the only one thinking of others... ;)

"That's irrelevant."

Because you say-so. OK... <s>

"No state carries the death penalty for drunk driving"

Strawman.

"and passive restraint systems are supposed to work regardless of the relative responsibility of the occupants."

And even with them, people still die in accidents. You really blaming GM for a drunk driver hitting a tree at 55 and dying? Slippery slope, kid.

It appears you are in support of drunk driving... <s>

[Edited by: Weaslespit at 4/23/2014 1:37:08 PM EST]
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Charlie_H
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Apr 23, 2014 10:08:31 AM

Weaslespit: "I'd be happier if you just posted some gas prices ;)"

Oh? How often do you buy gas in the Twin Cities?

Weaslespit: "(where many of the drivers made poor choices such as drunk driving...)."

That's irrelevant. No state carries the death penalty for drunk driving and passive restraint systems are supposed to work regardless of the relative responsibility of the occupants.

The fact of the matter is, GM's got a self-inflicted black eye.
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Shockjock1961
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Message Posted: Apr 23, 2014 9:58:07 AM

"They don't seem to be shirking responsibility at all"

They aren't?

"Since it began to recall vehicles in February, GM has been hit by dozens of lawsuits on behalf of individuals injured or killed in crashes involving recalled cars, as well as customers who said their vehicles lost value as a result of the company's actions.

The plaintiffs have claimed they bought or leased vehicles that had the defective ignition switch and accused GM of fraudulently concealing its knowledge of the defect, saying that as a result, it was not entitled to protection from liability.

"GM's argument suggests that the U.S. Government would have agreed to extend $40 billion of taxpayer money for GM's restructuring, and supported shielding it from liability through the sale order, had it known of GM's intentional misconduct," the plaintiffs said in their lawsuit.

In its filing, GM asked the court to direct the plaintiffs to cease and desist from further prosecuting against new GM claims that are barred by the bankruptcy sale order and the injunction, and also dismiss the earlier claims."

Sure looks likes they are trying to shirk their responsibility to me...
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Apr 23, 2014 9:45:01 AM

"Would you be happier if I created a fresh topic for Volt discussion every month when the bad news comes out?"

I'd be happier if you just posted some gas prices ;)
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Weaslespit
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Message Posted: Apr 23, 2014 9:40:26 AM

Trying to shirk your responsibilities to the people affected by a defective product, like GM is attempting, is also a problem both from a PR and a moral prospective..."

Strange, since GM is recalling all of these vehicles. They don't seem to be shirking responsibility at all - unless you are trying to drag in the pending litigation that GM will probably be protected from (where many of the drivers made poor choices such as drunk driving...).
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Apr 23, 2014 9:38:24 AM

"Well, every manufacturer tries to save cost."

Of course, but they went extreme - just like Toyota did a few years ago when their reviews from typically pro-Toyota sites started to note cheaper interiors...

"I am sure that when Delphi designed this part, its failing (compared to switches on other vehicles, certainly), was not apparent..."

Certainly. I am not saying that because GM was using its weight to force cost cutting from their supply base (beyond reasonable) that Delphi designed a bad part. The problem I am touching on is what impact the contentious relationship had 'after' the problem was discovered and what, if any, negative influence that may have had on coming to a reasonable fix (and how much of the cost each party would be responsible for).

"And be glad that manufacturers watch costs closely so that you can actually afford more than one car in a lifetime."

Absolutely - but it must be a balanced approach, and this is not what GM had to start the 21st Century.
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Shockjock1961
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Message Posted: Apr 23, 2014 9:29:12 AM

"All manufacturers have had recalls. Recalls aren't 'bad'. Failing to recall for a real defect is a problem."

Trying to shirk your responsibilities to the people affected by a defective product, like GM is attempting, is also a problem both from a PR and a moral prospective...
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E-Squirrel
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Message Posted: Apr 22, 2014 10:18:57 PM

Weaslespit writes:

"It is a shame that Delphi and GM were at odds during the time period this switch was developed when the cost accountants were running GM and squeezing their supply base. Many of their cars from this time period show that cost, not quality, was the overriding concern at the time."

Well, every manufacturer tries to save cost. Years ago when I was younger, I remarked, critically in public, that GM figured the cost of items like door handles to five decimal places. An aeronautical engineer from Lockheed overheard me and ended the discussion by saying: 'and if they didn't, you couldn't afford to buy the car.'

He was right actually. If careful cost calculations and tradeoffs aren't made, we couldn't afford them. The trick obviously is to consider the tradeoffs. I am sure that when Delphi designed this part, its failing (compared to switches on other vehicles, certainly), was not apparent; it failed unexpectedly only after being in production and use. If GM had any failing it was in not taking action to rectify the problem more quickly. All manufacturers have had recalls. Recalls aren't 'bad'. Failing to recall for a real defect is a problem. And be glad that manufacturers watch costs closely so that you can actually afford more than one car in a lifetime.
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Charlie_H
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Message Posted: Apr 22, 2014 10:15:52 AM

Weaslespit: "You [Charlie] bumped a dead thread to gloat, the very thing you despise about GM doing years ago. Period. Nobody had posted anything in this thread for a month... no fanbois, no haters."

It looked like a good time for a summary and what could have been a wrap-up, as GM's latest offering was choking in the market. So, I posted one. I probably should have waited for the topic's 6th birthday, as that would be more fitting.

Would you be happier if I created a fresh topic for Volt discussion every month when the bad news comes out?
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Weaslespit
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Message Posted: Apr 22, 2014 10:13:51 AM

"They call them "accidents" for a reason."

They call it drunk driving and reckless operation for a reason...

"And, whether or not one is driving recklessly, the air bag is supposed to be there to protect the occupants. That's their purpose."

True, which is why GM is recalling the switch. But these devices (air bags) don't guarantee safety.

"The child is the father of the man. When one looks at the Volt..."

And a return to the status quo of flaming... LOL!
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Charlie_H
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Message Posted: Apr 22, 2014 10:10:41 AM

Weaslespit: "due to people putting excessive weight on their key ring..."

It's no surprise that GM was building cars so delicate that what people put on their keyrings will disable the vehicles.

Weaslespit: "and then driving recklessly, in some cases."

They call them "accidents" for a reason. And, whether or not one is driving recklessly, the air bag is supposed to be there to protect the occupants. That's their purpose.

Weaslespit: "Many of their cars from this time period show that cost, not quality, was the overriding concern at the time."

The child is the father of the man. When one looks at the Volt, there's no reason to believe there's any real change in the relative priority of cost vs satisfaction - but there may be greater awareness of the risks of getting caught doing something patently unsafe.

Although the Volt is a pretty good idea, GM stuck a completely unsophisticated engine into it, raisint the compression and octane requirement as a last-ditch effort to cheaply maximize what was ultimately bad CS mode fuel economy and didn't do the engineering necessary to minize weight and drag, leaving the door open for the car to be perceived as second-rate in important respects.

New GM will probably be able to dodge most of the legal liabilty for Old GM's actions but it isn't going to look good to the public.

And the Feds aren't impressed with GM. Note the language suggesting that GM is not as responsible and responsive as their peers:

ODI to GM Letter

I expect we'll be hearing more about that.
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Shockjock1961
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Message Posted: Apr 22, 2014 10:09:12 AM

"a smart, calculated business decision"

It may have been a "smart, calculated business decision" to ignoring a defect that resulted in lost lives, but to go to court in an attempt to get out of paying for your malfeasance shows how morally bankrupt GM was, and continues to be...



[Edited by: Shockjock1961 at 4/22/2014 10:11:09 AM EST]
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Shockjock1961
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Apr 22, 2014 10:05:47 AM

"GM IS, however, paying their obligations in the form of recalling millions of vehicles "

Which Toyota also did. The difference is that Toyota paid restitution to the people who were effected by the supposed defect, and paid a fine, whereas GM is trying to leave the people who were impacted by their negligence to hang in the wind....
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geminijax
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Message Posted: Apr 22, 2014 9:59:17 AM

Weaslespit:

"Again - stick to discussing the topic, rather than trying to drudge-up old drama to make asinine comments about another poster."

Again, did NOT ask for your advice and don't want it. Go give it those who want it. Of course, that's only if such individuals exist.

"Still responding? You must be mad, bro. ;) "
Says the person who keeps dishing out unwanted and useless advice! Hmmm!
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Apr 22, 2014 9:52:39 AM

"At least Toyota paid the fines, and restituition to those harmed. GM is now trying to get out of paying their obligations..."

Off-topic but a smart, calculated business decision. Toyota had no choice but to pay the penalties, FYI.

GM IS, however, paying their obligations in the form of recalling millions of vehicles with an occurrence factor infinitesimally small due to people putting excessive weight on their key ring and then driving recklessly, in some cases.

It is a shame that Delphi and GM were at odds during the time period this switch was developed when the cost accountants were running GM and squeezing their supply base. Many of their cars from this time period show that cost, not quality, was the overriding concern at the time.
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Weaslespit
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Message Posted: Apr 22, 2014 9:47:05 AM

"People with a different opinion are required to keep quiet about this? I don't think so."

Who said that? You bumped a dead thread to gloat, the very thing you despise about GM doing years ago. Period. Nobody had posted anything in this thread for a month... no fanbois, no haters.

Just can't let the flame war go, eh?

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the1roadhog
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Message Posted: Apr 22, 2014 9:00:17 AM

If you like driving a cardboard box, this is your car
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Shockjock1961
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Message Posted: Apr 22, 2014 8:43:18 AM

" "Is this where I am supposed to rehash the SUA again that Toyota hid and had to pay fines over?"

At least Toyota paid the fines, and restituition to those harmed. GM is now trying to get out of paying their obligations...
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Charlie_H
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Apr 21, 2014 5:01:57 PM

Weaslespit: "As has already been discussed and agreed upon, at least as far as my comments go..."

Some GM FanBois have never lost the swagger. Nor, so far as I can tell, has GM. They're still talking up the Volt, which continues to languish, the ELR, which has hit the market with a dull thud and are now talking about Volt 2.

Others here on GB were recently told they should not be "fooled" by the Volt's current sales numbers. That's hardly waving the white flag. Not to mention the recurrent lameline comparisons.

In the context of the current market and supported by unprecedented Federal money, the Volt is a dismal failure. Yet, a poster comes along telling a different and entirely bogus story. People with a different opinion are required to keep quiet about this? I don't think so.
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Charlie_H
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Message Posted: Apr 21, 2014 4:54:15 PM

Weaslespit: "Is this where I am supposed to rehash the SUA again that Toyota hid and had to pay fines over?"

Go for it. Although that might do better in a separate thread.
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Apr 21, 2014 4:44:16 PM

"This post is waayyy obsolete!"

Yes it is. GM's hybrids have failed outside of the Volt thus far. Not many have succeeded in the segment...
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Apr 21, 2014 4:42:25 PM

"The only thing that's well and truly dead are GM's hybrids. Remarking on that isn't a crime."

Can't let it go, like I said. Is this where I am supposed to rehash the SUA again that Toyota hid and had to pay fines over?

I note this was completely ignored;

"As has already been discussed and agreed upon, at least as far as my comments go..."

Flame-on, fanboys...

[Edited by: Weaslespit at 4/21/2014 4:43:13 PM EST]
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brandon6452
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Message Posted: Apr 21, 2014 4:00:15 PM

This post is waayyy obsolete!
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Nakomo
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Message Posted: Apr 21, 2014 2:50:07 PM

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Charlie_H
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Message Posted: Apr 21, 2014 2:17:11 PM

Weaslespit: "You mean the bumping of a dead thread?"

The only thing that's well and truly dead are GM's hybrids. Remarking on that isn't a crime. When GM finally pulls the plug on all of them... or wins... the thread will either die or change. As it is, GM is getting ready for Volt 2, in two new flavors (or so they are hinting). We'll certainly want to cover those developments.

Well, I will. GM FanBois... maybe not so much.
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