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Author Topic: Here Come the GM Hybrids!! Back to Topics
detfan

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Message Posted: Feb 21, 2008 7:17:11 AM

GM, has steadily been improving and increasing its hybrid technology, first being used in buses back in 2002. Early automotive hybrids, on the Saturn Aura and Chevy Malibu have been of the "mild" type -- not too much additional price, and not too much additional mileage. Playing catchup to the Prius and others, it now seems GM is getting in the game to dominate.

Enter the first two-stage hybrids, appropriately being introduced on GM's gas guzzling Tahoe and Yukon. The mileage ratings on these are 50% higher than their standard counterparts giving them the same city mileage as a 4 cyl. mid sized sedan. However, as the link below indicates, like my 2008 Malibu LTZ, the Tahoe tested is getting 25% better mileage than its EPA Ratings, getting 26.3 mpg!!

GM says they will be releasing new hybrids every three or four months, for the next few years. The 2009 Chevy Silverado and GMC Sierra will have this same technology. The Saturn Vue will, also, and then also be available as a plug-in hybrid. Its going to be interesting watching the progress and gauging the success of each model.
Chevy Tahoe Two-Stage Hybrid Road Test
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Jul 18, 2014 2:03:31 PM

"Your being to hard on yourself weas... Lighten up..."

Lol, I thought poking fun at his spelling of Cincy was an attempt at lightening up - I'll put a smiley-face on it next time :)
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reb4
Champion Author Chicago

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Message Posted: Jul 18, 2014 11:46:17 AM

"Haters gonna hate.."



Your being to hard on yourself weas... Lighten up...



[Edited by: reb4 at 7/18/2014 11:46:32 AM EST]
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Jul 18, 2014 11:43:40 AM

"FYI, quibbling over typos isn't an improvement."

Haters gonna hate...
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Charlie_H
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Jul 17, 2014 5:10:28 PM

FYI, quibbling over typos isn't an improvement.
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Jul 17, 2014 2:59:13 PM

"Outside Cincinatti that's not considered a cogent argument or even a clever rejoinder."

Never heard of Cincinnatti...

If you are going to be sarcastic while attempting to sound witty, at least run spell-check first...

[Edited by: Weaslespit at 7/17/2014 3:00:12 PM EST]
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Charlie_H
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Jul 17, 2014 2:18:35 PM

Weaslespit: "ROTFLOL!!!"

Outside Cincinatti that's not considered a cogent argument or even a clever rejoinder.
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Jul 17, 2014 12:51:25 PM

"Actually, the CMAX is a perfect example of a failure in promoting an over rated mpg rating."

True.
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Jul 17, 2014 12:50:53 PM

"If you're unhappy, go dig up some facts of your own. Whining is just a waste of time."

LOL, I simply find it interesting that when I post number from fuelly, you attempt to diminish them yet when their numbers serve your agenda... ;)

"I did enough lookups to justify my post."

ROTFLOL!!!
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Charlie_H
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Jul 17, 2014 11:44:31 AM

Of course, since this is a thread about GM hybrids, we should take a moment to consider the fnes of the GM hybrids.

I read an amusing post on GM-Volt.com the other day... Someone has been tracking ELR ads and finds that ELR offers have declined by 2 since the beginning of the month. Since, he says, GM has quit producing ELRs, this suggests that ELR sales will be on the order of 4 for the month.

I guess the ELR is not destined to be real profitable for GM. Perhaps it exists to divert attention from the Volt?
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Charlie_H
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Message Posted: Jul 17, 2014 11:35:58 AM

Weaslespit,

Fuelly has the largest number of reporters. Only Voltstats.net has better participation but that's Volts only. Fuelly does have drawbacks, particularly the inability to filter out different drivetrains.

I did enough lookups to justify my post. The larger Prius V is about 240 pounds lighter than the C-Max. Best available information on fuel economy actually comes from FuelEconomy.gov because of drivetrain reporting problems on Fuelly. I recommend you pay particular attention to the median fuel economy of each vehicle.

If you're unhappy, go dig up some facts of your own. Whining is just a waste of time.

[Edited by: Charlie_H at 7/17/2014 11:39:22 AM EST]
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reb4
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Message Posted: Jul 17, 2014 11:03:42 AM

Actually, the CMAX is a perfect example of a failure in promoting an over rated mpg rating.When I worked for a large company, the joke was, whoever made that stupid decision should be taken out in the parking lot and shot! (most people said it in jest, though I imagine some did not)...Ford went out of their way to promote both of their hybrid models and touted mpg ratings that they were later made to lower. With the C-Max, they did it 2x's... I have a 2010 prius and because we use the vehicle for very (1 mile) trips our mileage has dropped below the 50.... but we are still above anything available ... (I would be great advertiser for ev... if any exec would be willing to give me a great deal on one... I will tout the advantages... .. Seriously....)..

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Weaslespit
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Message Posted: Jul 17, 2014 10:42:35 AM

"It depends on the hybrid. Most of the Prius line comes close to their EPA numbers (source: Fuelly.com) and some exceed their EPA numbers."

Back to quoting fuelly now that it suits your position (ie paints Toyota in a positive light)? ;)

"I'd guess that the effect of vehicle mass is underestimated by the EPA test. The C-Max line is fairly heavy, the Prius line is not."

I love how you shoot form the hip with no actual knowledge/data/facts. Too funny!

Whatever it takes to support your POV for the 'win'! Go Toyota!
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Charlie_H
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Message Posted: Jul 17, 2014 10:23:53 AM

It depends on the hybrid. Most of the Prius line comes close to their EPA numbers (source: Fuelly.com) and some exceed their EPA numbers.

I'd guess that the effect of vehicle mass is underestimated by the EPA test. The C-Max line is fairly heavy, the Prius line is not.
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E-Squirrel
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Message Posted: Jul 16, 2014 3:18:09 AM

An article relevant to the ongoing discussion of the "merits" of hybrid powertrain vehicles appeared in the July 15th issue of the Wall Street Journal. Following the correction of inflated mileage estimates of certain hybrid models, including Fords, the mathmatical models used for estimating are shown to need revision. While they tend to show accurate results for normal powertrains, they overestimate the fuel economy of gasoline-electric hybrid vehicles and UNDERESTIMATE the economy of diesel engine vehicles.

Improved estimates will probably affect future sales of hybrid vehicles. I provide a link to the article here, but the WSJ website is behind a paywall, and you may not be able to access the article.

WSJ Article

Sometimes the Google search link will work:

Via Google search

[Edited by: E-Squirrel at 7/16/2014 3:19:09 AM EST]
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Jul 3, 2014 2:38:52 PM

"I'm glad we agree..."

Whatever you need to think to help you get ready for your day ;)

Haters gonna hate.
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Shockjock1961
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Message Posted: Jul 3, 2014 2:06:40 PM

"That must be it.."

I'm glad we agree...
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Jul 3, 2014 10:55:52 AM

"Do you consider the statement of fact a flame because you can't refute it?"

LOL! That must be it...

Haters gonna hate.
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Shockjock1961
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Message Posted: Jul 3, 2014 9:45:10 AM

Facts are facts. How are facts considered a flame?

Do you consider the statement of fact a flame because you can't refute it?

[Edited by: Shockjock1961 at 7/3/2014 9:48:20 AM EST]
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Jul 3, 2014 8:46:48 AM

"They'd certainly be better off giving up the ineffective and overpriced BAS vehicles"

And for the fourth time, I agree. They have failed here. But keep beating that dead horse for your own self gratification, fanboy :) Flame on!
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Weaslespit
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Message Posted: Jul 3, 2014 8:45:43 AM

"Fact: GM has recalled 28 million cars so far this year.

Fact: GM announced a new round of recalls on Monday of 7.6 million cars.

Fact: GM stock trading was brought to a halt as investors dumped GM stock."

You see charlie? fanboys gonna flame...
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Jul 3, 2014 8:44:57 AM

"And they got to the top of the pack 20 or more years ago. What was GM doing all that time?"

Abusing their customer, building crappy cars. How many times are you going to run around this circle?

"Is there some reason they can't actually match Toyota?"

Apparently you haven't been paying attention - they are certainly on their way. Again - you don't get away from decades of poor quality and change the entire culture overnight. Toyota didn't do it, and neither will GM. But they are making progress, as is the entire industry, as I already indicated.

Keep trying to flame GM though. Haters gonna hate... fanboys gonna flame.
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Charlie_H
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Jul 2, 2014 4:30:55 PM

Weaslespit: "You tried to not beat that dead horse for almost a month, but succumbed yet again..."

GM should stop trying to enter dead horses into races, it's not a winning strategy. They'd certainly be better off giving up the ineffective and overpriced BAS vehicles and putting the resources into something that has a chance. Developing a better ICE for the Volt would be a good start.
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Shockjock1961
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Message Posted: Jul 2, 2014 4:27:34 PM

"Like I said, you are trying to put a negative spin on a recall of an OEM "

It's not a spin it's a fact.

Fact: GM has recalled 28 million cars so far this year.

Fact: GM announced a new round of recalls on Monday of 7.6 million cars.

Fact: GM stock trading was brought to a halt as investors dumped GM stock.

No spin, simple FACT...

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Charlie_H
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Jul 2, 2014 4:26:13 PM

"Toyota's quality didn't get to where it is at overnight either..."

And they got to the top of the pack 20 or more years ago. What was GM doing all that time?

Did Toyota have a 100 year head start on GM or something? Is there some reason GM has to settle for less reliable/less longevity today? Is there some reason they can't actually match Toyota? Is it somehow a good business plan to let a rival be significantly better? To let Toyota build cars with better resale value because buyers believe they are better built and the stats they see everywhere support that notion?
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Weaslespit
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Message Posted: Jul 2, 2014 4:16:58 PM

"As I pointed out, it was the investors who seem to be taking a dim view of all the recalls. But we wouldn't want the facts to get in the way of your opinion, would we?"

Like I said, you are trying to put a negative spin on a recall of an OEM that you simply do not like. How very shallow...

Each side has theirs, so don't feel like you are alone - I am sure you could form a support group with those that post Toyota recall news and spin it negatively as well since it is equally foolish.
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Jul 2, 2014 4:14:59 PM

"GM's hybrid program really has reached "why bother?" status."

You tried to not beat that dead horse for almost a month, but succumbed yet again...

[Edited by: Weaslespit at 7/2/2014 4:15:16 PM EST]
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Shockjock1961
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Message Posted: Jul 2, 2014 4:10:25 PM

"And there it is, the fanboy flamewar favorite weapon of choice - recall comparisons."

What comparison was made?

"When it is ones favorite OEM, it is the company doing the right thing being responsible, but when it is a hated rival..."

As I pointed out, it was the investors who seem to be taking a dim view of all the recalls. But we wouldn't want the facts to get in the way of your opinion, would we?

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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Jul 2, 2014 4:05:09 PM

"With 28 million recalls this year even this meager goal seems to be out of reach for GM. Investors seem to be thinking the same..."

And there it is, the fanboy flamewar favorite weapon of choice - recall comparisons. How small minded ;)

When it is ones favorite OEM, it is the company doing the right thing being responsible, but when it is a hated rival... LOL!

Try to rise above, bub.
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Jul 2, 2014 4:02:55 PM

"Right. That is such good news."

Correct - it is. Toyota's quality didn't get to where it is at overnight either...
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Charlie_H
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Message Posted: Jul 2, 2014 3:17:24 PM

GM's top selling non-plugin "hybrid," the Lacrosse, has fallen to #16 in the rankings.

GM's hybrid program really has reached "why bother?" status.

Of more interest, though, is the winner in the PHEV segment: the Fusion Energi suddenly hit nearly 2K in sales. Combined with the C-Max Energi, that put Ford solidly in the lead in the PHEV segment.

Considering that the Fusion Energi's unadjusted net price (MSRP minus the tax credit) is higher than the Volt's in spite of considerably shorter range, this is a surprising accomplishment.

The Ford Fusion hybrid is also selling relatively well, with take rates comparing favorably to the Camry hybrid. Only the C-Max hybrid seems disappointing in comparison but it's interesting to note that about a third of C-Maxes sold are the Energi variety, which is a pretty solid take rate for an option like that.
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Shockjock1961
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Message Posted: Jul 2, 2014 2:55:47 PM

"Average reliability is not something to steer clear of"

With 28 million recalls this year even this meager goal seems to be out of reach for GM. Investors seem to be thinking the same...

Trading of General Motors (GM_) shares was halted at 3 p.m. Monday afternoon after the automaker announced a new round of recalls affecting 7.6 million vehicles made from 1997-2014.
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Charlie_H
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Jul 2, 2014 2:53:31 PM

Weaslespit: "I don't have to, they have already done that, hence they are no longer 'below average' as a company and trending positive - as is the entire industry."

Right. That is such good news. I wouldn't be at all surprised to find out GM is handing out king-size bonuses for achieving "average." When he achieves mediocrity, the dull child gets praised.
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Weaslespit
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Message Posted: Jul 2, 2014 2:24:47 PM

"You should be looking at GM, etc, and asking why Toyota isn't just "average.""

I don't have to, they have already done that, hence they are no longer 'below average' as a company and trending positive - as is the entire industry.
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Jul 2, 2014 2:23:50 PM

"Yep, and mine is just as valid as yours"

Sure it is, but it isn't 'truth'...

"As you amply and continually demonstrate..."

Based on what? Please, do-tell.
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Charlie_H
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Message Posted: Jul 2, 2014 2:00:37 PM

Weaslespit: "Why? I don't think many would dispute that as a whole, Toyota has a higher level of overall quality than GM - and most other OEM's... Average reliability is not something to steer clear of, whereas below average is."

Why not?

And the only reason that Toyota is better than average is that the others leave Toyota room to be better than average. You should be looking at GM, etc, and asking why Toyota isn't just "average."

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Shockjock1961
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Message Posted: Jul 2, 2014 1:44:38 PM

"It is called opinion"

Yep, and mine is just as valid as yours, perhaps more so since my opinion is based on simple fact...

"Haters gonna hate..."

As you amply and continually demonstrate...



[Edited by: Shockjock1961 at 7/2/2014 1:46:58 PM EST]
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Jul 2, 2014 1:01:41 PM

"First, the Volt has now been in production for several years and GM noised off endlessly about what a careful job they were doing, so, now that we're past the "first year" problems, we'd sort of expect to see the Volt achieving superlative reliability, not "average.""

Why? I don't think many would dispute that as a whole, Toyota has a higher level of overall quality than GM - and most other OEM's... Average reliability is not something to steer clear of, whereas below average is.

But whatever, Prius owners can compare whatever stats they like for the 'win' ;)
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Jul 2, 2014 12:59:01 PM

"There's nothing hateful in my statememt, just simple truth...."

It is called opinion. Haters gonna hate...
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Shockjock1961
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Jul 2, 2014 12:52:43 PM

"Haters gonna hate..."

There's nothing hateful in my statememt, just simple truth....
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Charlie_H
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Jul 2, 2014 11:58:20 AM

Weaslespit: "Just so I understand, we are comparing the reliability of a brand new platform/technology for GM to that of a very well-established one for Toyota? Which shows, btw, that the Volt has average reliability?"

First, the Volt has now been in production for several years and GM noised off endlessly about what a careful job they were doing, so, now that we're past the "first year" problems, we'd sort of expect to see the Volt achieving superlative reliability, not "average."

Second, I was comparing a brand-new Volt to a ten-plus-year-old Prius. Against a ten-year-old Prius, the Volt is only marginally worse. Extrapolating from what we have, if you go out and buy a new Volt and a 17-year-old Prius today, you can expect the Volt to visit the shop a little less often this year than that nearly antique Prius. So, I don't see what you're complaining about, I found you a "win."

If it makes you feel any better, there don't seem to be any complaints at all about the electric drive unit/eCVT assembly, which is at the heart of the Volt. Of course, we expected that, as it's made by Aisin, who also builds the HSD eCVTs for Toyota.
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Jul 2, 2014 10:56:49 AM

"Average reliability for a car claimed to be "extraordinary". How underwhelming...."

Haters gonna hate...
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Shockjock1961
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Jul 2, 2014 10:56:19 AM

" Which shows, btw, that the Volt has average reliability?"

Average reliability for a car claimed to be "extraordinary". How underwhelming....
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Jul 2, 2014 10:54:09 AM

Just so I understand, we are comparing the reliability of a brand new platform/technology for GM to that of a very well-established one for Toyota? Which shows, btw, that the Volt has average reliability?

Whatever it takes for the 'win' :)

Haters gonna hate...
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Charlie_H
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Jul 1, 2014 8:20:59 AM

geminijax,

Thanks for the numbers.

Hmmm... if you look at those numbers carefully, a new Volt is almost as reliable as a 10 year old Prius. Although TrueDelta doesn't provide data back past 10 years, we can do a linear regression to see that a new Volt would be just a bit more reliable than a 17 year old Prius. Volt wins!
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geminijax
Champion Author Jacksonville

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Message Posted: Jun 30, 2014 11:30:12 PM

Here's a comparison of reliability ratings for the Volt and the Prius from TrueDelta.

Volt v/sPrius Reliability Comparison
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Jun 23, 2014 2:38:54 PM

"Those are shortcomings that everybody finds..."

Everybody? Hhmmm.... Gotta love baseless generalizations!
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Jun 23, 2014 2:37:43 PM

"What a ridiculous response from WS!"

Yeah, ridiculous... Not even remotely feasible. <s>

"It's rather obvious that there are quite a few consumers who have the same opinions."

Did you catch that last word? 'Opinion'. Yes, there are clearly those who have opinions of the Volt as you have described. There are also thousands of owners who don't...

"Obviously, you're conveniently ignoring the fact that the PIP is available in only 15 states whereas the Volt is available in all 50 states."

Sounds like you found a good criticism for Toyota...

"There's a stark difference in FACTS & OPINIONS!"

Agreed! See above regarding 'opinions'.
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Madridjoe
Veteran Author Lancaster

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Message Posted: Jun 14, 2014 12:40:34 PM

GM has a lot of issues, the volt may be the least of their problems
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geminijax
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Message Posted: Jun 14, 2014 12:35:30 PM

Weaslespit: "What a coincidence, an 'old friend that happens to work at a Chevy Dealer that expressed every shortcoming of the Volt you have professed as well'..."

What a ridiculous response from WS!

LOL! Obviously, you don't believe that. Who cares? It's rather obvious that there are quite a few consumers who have the same opinions.

You keep citing NA sales. Obviously, you're conveniently ignoring the fact that the PIP is available in only 15 states whereas the Volt is available in all 50 states. Toyota is selling every PIP they build without massive taxpayer assistance or rebates. GM, OTOH, is finding it a tough going selling the Volt even with those crutches.

BTW, I cited several FACTS in my post. There's a stark difference in FACTS & OPINIONS!
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Charlie_H
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Jun 13, 2014 3:52:31 PM

Weaslespit: "So let's stop pretending that GM is the only loser here ;)"

Who says GM is the only loser? They're just the most frequent and most miserable loser. It's worse that each one of these frequent and miserable GM losses was easily predictable by anyone who gave the vehicles ten seconds' worth of honest consideration. Something GM is apparently unable to do.

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