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detfan Champion Author Tallahassee Posts:12,177 Points:1,241,655 Joined:May 2006	Message Posted: Feb 21, 2008 7:17:11 AM Ignore detfan Report Abuse GM, has steadily been improving and increasing its hybrid technology, first being used in buses back in 2002. Early automotive hybrids, on the Saturn Aura and Chevy Malibu have been of the "mild" type -- not too much additional price, and not too much additional mileage. Playing catchup to the Prius and others, it now seems GM is getting in the game to dominate. Enter the first two-stage hybrids, appropriately being introduced on GM's gas guzzling Tahoe and Yukon. The mileage ratings on these are 50% higher than their standard counterparts giving them the same city mileage as a 4 cyl. mid sized sedan. However, as the link below indicates, like my 2008 Malibu LTZ, the Tahoe tested is getting 25% better mileage than its EPA Ratings, getting 26.3 mpg!! GM says they will be releasing new hybrids every three or four months, for the next few years. The 2009 Chevy Silverado and GMC Sierra will have this same technology. The Saturn Vue will, also, and then also be available as a plug-in hybrid. Its going to be interesting watching the progress and gauging the success of each model. Chevy Tahoe Two-Stage Hybrid Road Test

detfan

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Tallahassee

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Message Posted: Feb 21, 2008 7:17:11 AM

Ignore detfan Report Abuse

GM, has steadily been improving and increasing its hybrid technology, first being used in buses back in 2002. Early automotive hybrids, on the Saturn Aura and Chevy Malibu have been of the "mild" type -- not too much additional price, and not too much additional mileage. Playing catchup to the Prius and others, it now seems GM is getting in the game to dominate.

Enter the first two-stage hybrids, appropriately being introduced on GM's gas guzzling Tahoe and Yukon. The mileage ratings on these are 50% higher than their standard counterparts giving them the same city mileage as a 4 cyl. mid sized sedan. However, as the link below indicates, like my 2008 Malibu LTZ, the Tahoe tested is getting 25% better mileage than its EPA Ratings, getting 26.3 mpg!!

GM says they will be releasing new hybrids every three or four months, for the next few years. The 2009 Chevy Silverado and GMC Sierra will have this same technology. The Saturn Vue will, also, and then also be available as a plug-in hybrid. Its going to be interesting watching the progress and gauging the success of each model.
Chevy Tahoe Two-Stage Hybrid Road Test

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reb4 Champion Author Chicago Posts:19,101 Points:1,821,150 Joined:Sep 2004	Message Posted: Apr 10, 2013 8:35:46 PM Ignore reb4 Report Abuse Battery replacement is not as much as one may think.... A company that offers battery pack (rebuilt) for 1,875... other companies are out there This company is likely not the cheapest out there, but promotes a "better product"... As for Car warranty for Hybrid Battery... "Toyota clearly has confidence in its battery packs, and offers an 8-year/100,000-mile warranty in most states. In states that adopt California's emissions regulations, that rises to 10-years/150,000-miles. So in a worst-case scenario, any battery failure or significant performance drop-off will be covered by the warranty for up to a decade." And Toyota, the leader in Hybrid sales : "Toyota told us that the engineers consider the NiMH batteries in Prius and other Toyota hybrids to be a life-of-the-car component. It could be several owners and hundreds of thousands of miles down the line before the pack requires replacement, at which point the car itself may well be past its prime. That's backed up by stories like the 300,000-mile Ford Escape hybrid taxis, and Consumer Reports recently tested a 215,000-mile 2003 Prius and found its performance had barely diminished. In the latter, the only component that had needed replacement was a fan belt, at 127,000 miles." Source for this story...Toyota Hybrid Battery Replacement Cost Guide article in Green Car Reports As for the comment about wife not liking the Prius, that is totally understandable. My wife refused to drive it for 1st year... Now she uses it most of the time... Though I think she does it to get my mpg down... :-)
WhiteRaven48 Champion Author Twin Cities Posts:1,916 Points:55,705 Joined:Oct 2007	Message Posted: Apr 10, 2013 6:37:44 PM Ignore WhiteRaven48 Report Abuse reb4, it would be my intention for the C-Max to be close to fully warmed up when the test begins... ie I plan to drive it to a local gas station to fill up per some sort of consistent method before heading out for the test. I'll check tires as well...good idea. Wind direction is what it is...the route is south 90 miles, north 90 miles. It will be a calm spring day when I go.
reb4 Champion Author Chicago Posts:19,101 Points:1,821,150 Joined:Sep 2004	Message Posted: Apr 10, 2013 5:24:12 PM Ignore reb4 Report Abuse E-Squirrel, " Toyota offers a long warranty on the battery, but I believe that it is _prorata_, meaning that failure inside the warranty period still incurs costs." That is incorrect statement. and if you are actually from california, it's even longer which is why Prius was the NUMBER ONE NEW VEHICLE IN YOUR STATE."Since I have never kept a car for less than 12 years, and often for more than 15, it would be logical that a Prius that I owned would require a battery replacement, eventually. Such cost tends to erase the savings." Rebuilt battery's are readily available.... Whiteraven, ... depending if you want to win or lose... watch the warmup and wind direction of that car... also check the tires (bring a gauge). Personally I think the C-Max is a good car. I think people buying the fords are not being realistic... If you want more info, contact me... By the way, chevy Malibu mild hybrid is best in getting what they are estimated according to reports I read.
E-Squirrel Champion Author Orange County Posts:3,012 Points:819,060 Joined:Feb 2005	Message Posted: Apr 10, 2013 4:53:47 PM Ignore E-Squirrel Report Abuse davisadm says: "Replacing those battery packs is expensive." I have to somewhat agree with this. Recently, my wife and I looked at new cars, and I decided that I liked the Prius. My wife didn't like driving it however, and since we would both have to drive it, we had to settle on something that we both found acceptable. Looking at the difference in long term operating costs in a spreadsheet, I was surprised to find that the payback period for the initial price of the Prius could be two years or less. This is all highly speculative, based upon the unknown future cost of gasoline, and any possible costs of battery replacement. Toyota offers a long warranty on the battery, but I believe that it is _prorata_, meaning that failure inside the warranty period still incurs costs. Since I have never kept a car for less than 12 years, and often for more than 15, it would be logical that a Prius that I owned would require a battery replacement, eventually. Such cost tends to erase the savings. My wife didn't like my second choice of a diesel Golf TDI either. Its higher purchase price, combined with the higher cost of fuel wasn't enough to overcome its 45mgh rating either. (Prius was 50). Possible extraordinary costs of injection systems and turbocharger repairs would also have to be considered, so I settled for a normally aspirated gasoline model with 40mpg, and a lower initial purchase cost. Who knows what the ultimate long term cost will actually be. Its a gamble that you cannot avoid, much as I admired the VW and Toyota. [Edited by: E-Squirrel at 4/10/2013 4:55:41 PM EST]
WhiteRaven48 Champion Author Twin Cities Posts:1,916 Points:55,705 Joined:Oct 2007	Message Posted: Apr 10, 2013 1:26:57 PM Ignore WhiteRaven48 Report Abuse A local Ford dealer has accepted my challenge of taking a C-Max out on a somewhat controlled route of approximately 180 miles. Speeds on that route never exceed 60 mph, and the route is relatively flat. To be somewhat scientific, I'll figure out a consistent method for filling it up with gas.
davisadm All-Star Author Los Angeles Posts:562 Points:409,400 Joined:Dec 2011	Message Posted: Apr 3, 2013 3:07:55 PM Ignore davisadm Report Abuse Not in my household! Way overpriced for the "benefits" received. Long term reliability and maintenance not really known. Replacing those battery packs is expensive. This is coming from someone who keeps cars a long time, which in the long run saves a lot of money.
reb4 Champion Author Chicago Posts:19,101 Points:1,821,150 Joined:Sep 2004	Message Posted: Apr 3, 2013 1:52:53 PM Ignore reb4 Report Abuse "It sounds like the big price cut by Nissan may have had something to do with that so it might not be a flyer... GM might have just been forced to do the same." I see toyota is also supposedly doing the price discounts that we heard the Volt did last year... according to this article from last month... I think all the players have some room to play with prices... PIP only sold 786 last month... nothing to write home about... [Edited by: reb4 at 4/3/2013 1:58:22 PM EST]
Charlie_H Champion Author Twin Cities Posts:1,551 Points:29,815 Joined:Oct 2008	Message Posted: Apr 3, 2013 1:38:36 PM Ignore Charlie_H Report Abuse I learn things all the time. If only GM learned things, then, perhaps, they'd build a hybrid that would sell. If they had been paying attention, they might have learned lessons from both the successful and the unsuccessful hybrids (well, the latter would include all of GM's efforts). Seriously, set the Wayback for 1999 and go lord it over Toyota. I'm sure they'll be terribly embarassed over their relative failure and GM's relative success. [Edited by: Charlie_H at 4/3/2013 1:39:05 PM EST]
Weaslespit Champion Author Cincinnati Posts:8,874 Points:311,570 Joined:Sep 2008	Message Posted: Apr 3, 2013 1:28:26 PM Ignore Weaslespit Report Abuse "I see you continue to endorse absurd "sales by launch month" comparisons of cars that were delivered over a decade apart into different markets with different fuel price landscapes." I see you still haven't learned past lessons and are insistent on pushing your opinion as fact. Too bad.
Charlie_H Champion Author Twin Cities Posts:1,551 Points:29,815 Joined:Oct 2008	Message Posted: Apr 3, 2013 9:56:35 AM Ignore Charlie_H Report Abuse Weaslespit, I see you continue to endorse absurd "sales by launch month" comparisons of cars that were delivered over a decade apart into different markets with different fuel price landscapes. "This means that Voltec needs to sell only 9,556 units the remainder of this year(1,062 per month) to remain ahead of the pace that the Prius set over a decade ago." Bravo! We can set The Wayback Machine for 1999 and El Lutzbo can go back and kick Uchiyamada's butt. While GM can gloat over this delightful victory over a car that ahs been out of production for 11 years, it is unfortunate that the Volt needs to sell over 2800 vehicles per month to avoid making Akerson look like a fool for his "36,000" projection (and that's allowing for 6K Ampera sales in a market that looks totally moribund. Which car is a success? A glance at the personnel involved probably tells us what we want to know. Frank Weber, who led the Volt engineering effort, left GM before the Volt was produced. El Lutzbo left GM before the Volt launched and is now employed at VIA Motors and I expect he'll be assisting in taking a third company into Chapter 11 soon (Exide being another scalp on his belt). Tony Posawatz ("rhymes with kilowatts!" he often said), Vehicle Line Director for the Volt also left GM and is currently attempting to implement a strategy for harvesting taxpayer cash but is more likely to take Fisker Motors into Chapter 11. Takeshi Uchiyamada, who was a noise and vibration specialist before he was picked to lead the engineering effort for the original Toyota Prius, having delivered a profitable, effective and market-leading car and drivetrain design (now implemented in about a dozen vehicles), is currently a vice-chairman of Toyota's board of directors.
Weaslespit Champion Author Cincinnati Posts:8,874 Points:311,570 Joined:Sep 2008	Message Posted: Apr 3, 2013 9:20:34 AM Ignore Weaslespit Report Abuse "Be interesting to see if Leaf sales continue to do well or just a one off phenom..." It sounds like the big price cut by Nissan may have had something to do with that so it might not be a flyer... GM might have just been forced to do the same.
Weaslespit Champion Author Cincinnati Posts:8,874 Points:311,570 Joined:Sep 2008	Message Posted: Apr 3, 2013 9:19:03 AM Ignore Weaslespit Report Abuse "With March Volt sales of 1,478, Voltec sales now stand at 42,675. This does not include any international sales of Volt or Ampera in 2013. Prius global sales through its first 4 years was 52,230. This means that Voltec needs to sell only 9,556 units the remainder of this year(1,062 per month) to remain ahead of the pace that the Prius set over a decade ago. In year 5(2014), Voltec must average 2,455 units per month to maintain its superior sales pace(reduced by the 2013 Voltec sales that exceed the Prius pace)." Courtesy of detfan.
reb4 Champion Author Chicago Posts:19,101 Points:1,821,150 Joined:Sep 2004	Message Posted: Apr 2, 2013 1:27:06 PM Ignore reb4 Report Abuse [L=http://www.plugincars.com/text deleted / ??[/L] Be interesting to see if Leaf sales continue to do well or just a one off phenom... I'm happy GM is still selling the Volt. Though I am sure they are more interested in selling the upscale caddy version... Leaf / Volt sales - starting to heat up? [Edited by: reb4 at 4/2/2013 1:29:24 PM EST]
Charlie_H Champion Author Twin Cities Posts:1,551 Points:29,815 Joined:Oct 2008	Message Posted: Apr 2, 2013 12:46:05 PM Ignore Charlie_H Report Abuse Perspective is that sales are in decline for the last 12 months. If you look at the last 13-15, the decline is greater. That excludes the "pardon us while we figure out how to build the thing" phase of its introduction.
Weaslespit Champion Author Cincinnati Posts:8,874 Points:311,570 Joined:Sep 2008	Message Posted: Apr 2, 2013 11:28:48 AM Ignore Weaslespit Report Abuse only 125 sold in July 2011... Perspective.
Charlie_H Champion Author Twin Cities Posts:1,551 Points:29,815 Joined:Oct 2008	Message Posted: Apr 2, 2013 11:16:26 AM Ignore Charlie_H Report Abuse Volt sales continue to disappoint. Only 1478 sold in March. It's really remarkable that GM can't get sales up on the thing, even with $7500 (and up) in tax credits and perks.
FieroGT Champion Author Twin Cities Posts:14,317 Points:2,505,135 Joined:Mar 2005	Message Posted: Mar 21, 2013 5:35:40 AM Ignore FieroGT Report Abuse Oh goodie, I can hardly wait.
Weaslespit Champion Author Cincinnati Posts:8,874 Points:311,570 Joined:Sep 2008	Message Posted: Mar 6, 2013 10:53:59 PM Ignore Weaslespit Report Abuse Whole lotta nothing in that last post. Keep-up the baseless, off-topic accusations. Better for you to hate on me than GM (for at least a day). You might not be able to be reasoned with but it does appear you can be distracted.
Charlie_H Champion Author Twin Cities Posts:1,551 Points:29,815 Joined:Oct 2008	Message Posted: Mar 6, 2013 1:51:47 PM Ignore Charlie_H Report Abuse Cop out? Your post explicitly referred to the Volt "lead" over the G1 Prius 3 times and there are addtional implicit references (sentences that would make no sense otherwise). What would you like us to think the central theme of your post was? Was it kittens? Oreo cookies? Here is your original post: "Adding the 1,626 February U.S. Volt sales, Voltec only needs to sell another 11,034 units the rest of the year to retain its lead over the Prius over its first 4 years. That is 1104 per month. GM built 3,298 Volt's in February, so they must think sales will increase some this year. For Voltec to continue to lead in year 5, almost 2,500 per month will have to be sold, minus whatever lead they will have after this year. Initial news on the 2015 Volt is exciting!!" -- 88 words Here is your original post edited to eliminate the sentences or clauses that explicitly and implicitly refer to the Volt's "lead" over a car with which it did not compete because it's 13 years late, among other things: "[Volt had] 1,626 February U.S. Volt sales. ... GM built 3,298 Volt's in February, so they must think sales will increase some this year. ... Initial news on the 2015 Volt is exciting!!" -- 31 words
Weaslespit Champion Author Cincinnati Posts:8,874 Points:311,570 Joined:Sep 2008	Message Posted: Mar 6, 2013 11:29:13 AM Ignore Weaslespit Report Abuse "You're going to wait quite a while. I'm not going to remember what your opinion is on any particular subject, that's not my mission in life. I would hope you would remember what your opinion is on any particular subject but you are welcome to change your mind." Wow, what a cop-out! You're bigger than that... "If you don't think the comparison is valid, don't post the comparison. If somebody else wants to dredge that up and post about it himself, that would be his problem." There you go talking in circles again Mr. Polite yet Passive Aggressive... I do think it is valid as a general reference that new technologies take time to develop before they take-off. You, for some reason, are fixated on competing in every 'hybrid' segment against GM even if it means comparing cars 'born' over 50 year apart (but 13 years apart, what are people thinking!). [Edited by: Weaslespit at 3/6/2013 11:30:06 AM EST]
Charlie_H Champion Author Twin Cities Posts:1,551 Points:29,815 Joined:Oct 2008	Message Posted: Mar 5, 2013 10:20:05 PM Ignore Charlie_H Report Abuse "I'm waiting for you to acknowledge that you knew prior to my posting what my opinion was on said subject." You're going to wait quite a while. I'm not going to remember what your opinion is on any particular subject, that's not my mission in life. I would hope you would remember what your opinion is on any particular subject but you are welcome to change your mind. "I'm also waiting for you to acknowledge that there was more to the info posted than 'gloating' over a pointless competition." Very little more than gloating over a pointless competition. Pretty much nothing of any use to anyone, as Volt monthly sales are easily found elsewhere. "I'm also waiting for you to stop comparing the Volt to the Edesel since comparing the value of cars born over 50 years apart would be even more pointless." No more pointless than cars a decade apart into different market conditions where one carried an unprecedented tax credit and had the advantage of observing the other's behavior. If you don't think the comparison is valid, don't post the comparison. If somebody else wants to dredge that up and post about it himself, that would be his problem. [Edited by: Charlie_H at 3/5/2013 10:20:12 PM EST]
Weaslespit Champion Author Cincinnati Posts:8,874 Points:311,570 Joined:Sep 2008	Message Posted: Mar 5, 2013 7:28:32 PM Ignore Weaslespit Report Abuse "I'm waiting for you to explain why you'd post something that you didn't agree with or, at the very least, bring to our attention." I'm waiting for you to acknowledge that you knew prior to my posting what my opinion was on said subject. I'm also waiting for you to acknowledge that there was more to the info posted than 'gloating' over a pointless competition. I'm also waiting for you to stop comparing the Volt to the Edesel since comparing the value of cars born over 50 years apart would be even more pointless. Keep trolling with your passive-aggressive, polite posts. Nobody said that the '15 Volt would be 'awsomeness incarnate', just excited at the possibilities that could make the Volt a better vehicle more capable of competing on its own. Let the blind hate continue. I wouldn't expect anything less.
Charlie_H Champion Author Twin Cities Posts:1,551 Points:29,815 Joined:Oct 2008	Message Posted: Mar 5, 2013 2:08:31 PM Ignore Charlie_H Report Abuse I'm waiting for you to explain why you'd post something that you didn't agree with or, at the very least, bring to our attention. What was in that post that was useful? Exciting developments for the Volt far over the horizon? Every car has that. You don't see me wasting people's time assuring them that the 2015 Prius will be awesomeness incarnate (partly because I don't have blind faith that it will be). What's your source? What's his source? If we care, where do we get more information? What are these developments? "You should be acutely aware at this point with regards to my opinion on the comparison between the Volt and the Prius as we have gone through this at great length." And you're acutely aware of my opinion, one that I have taken pains to illustrate. - The cars are a decade apart. - The market is different. - Gas prices are different. - The incentives are vastly different. - Public awareness of hybrid drivetrains is different. - One of the "competitors" had the advantage of studying the other "competitor's" experience in the market, taking advantage of lssons learned and, in so doing, had a much better chance of building a successful car. If you don't want to revisit the issue of 2001 Prius vs 2011 Volt "ad nauseum," then perhaps you shouldn't bring it up.
Weaslespit Champion Author Cincinnati Posts:8,874 Points:311,570 Joined:Sep 2008	Message Posted: Mar 5, 2013 12:56:23 PM Ignore Weaslespit Report Abuse "to take for granted, imply." That's right, you took something for granted, you implied, you were presumptuous in making such an assumption. Talking in circles will get you nowhere fast. "If you don't endorse the sentiment, why bring it to our attention?" Wow, are you being intentionally obtuse? I sure hope so for your sake. "You are surely aware of what some consider the questionable value of comparing cars born 13 years apart into entirely different market conditions?" I am, again, as we have discussed ad nauseam. I am not sure that you do however since you still make comparisons in the Edsel thread. Yikes...
Charlie_H Champion Author Twin Cities Posts:1,551 Points:29,815 Joined:Oct 2008	Message Posted: Mar 5, 2013 9:56:07 AM Ignore Charlie_H Report Abuse Presume also means "to take for granted, imply." If you don't endorse the sentiment, why bring it to our attention? You are surely aware of what some consider the questionable value of comparing cars born 13 years apart into entirely different market conditions?
Weaslespit Champion Author Cincinnati Posts:8,874 Points:311,570 Joined:Sep 2008	Message Posted: Mar 5, 2013 9:47:55 AM Ignore Weaslespit Report Abuse <I didn't say, "assume," I said, "presume."> Both words have numerous definitions in the OED, but in ordinary usage, both assume and presume mean “suppose." Meaning your comment here is a pointless defense of an indefensible position. "You should read the things you post before you post them." And you should read things before commenting on them. Maybe ask a question for clarification if you are confused for som reason rather than 'supposing' when in-fact you know the reality and are chosing to ignore it. "I am perfectly polite. Nobody likes the message. I'm not particularly bothered by that." If by passive agressive you mean polite, then sure... [Edited by: Weaslespit at 3/5/2013 9:50:55 AM EST]
Charlie_H Champion Author Twin Cities Posts:1,551 Points:29,815 Joined:Oct 2008	Message Posted: Mar 4, 2013 11:19:13 PM Ignore Charlie_H Report Abuse I didn't say, "assume," I said, "presume." If you don't endorse it, don't post it. From here, posting looks like endorsement. It was one fact (sales) and then a lot of highly dependent projections for the defeat of a car that Toyota superseded a decade ago. You should read the things you post before you post them. I am perfectly polite. Nobody likes the message. I'm not particularly bothered by that.
Weaslespit Champion Author Cincinnati Posts:8,874 Points:311,570 Joined:Sep 2008	Message Posted: Mar 4, 2013 10:46:19 PM Ignore Weaslespit Report Abuse "If you post it, I will presume you endorse it. Otherwise, you can let the ghost-poster post it himself." Then you assume in error. Your bad. Again, not only have we had this discussion in the past in which I made my position perfectly clear, there was more to the post than just the 'crowing' that you couldn't get past. "The remainder was "just you wait" spin or "we're still beating a decade old true pioneering car" spin or pure speculation "initial news on 2015 Volt is exciting," which is what we heard for 4 years about the 2011 Volt, except GM didn't deliver either what Lutz initially promised or the imagined car the fanboys whippped themselves into a frenzy over." And to think you were banned from the GM-Volt site for being perfectly polite in your trolling...
Charlie_H Champion Author Twin Cities Posts:1,551 Points:29,815 Joined:Oct 2008	Message Posted: Mar 4, 2013 4:33:03 PM Ignore Charlie_H Report Abuse If you post it, I will presume you endorse it. Otherwise, you can let the ghost-poster post it himself. A DECADE AGO is, surprisingly enough, A DECADE AGO. GM and its fans might as well claim victory over the Detroit Edison Corp because GM's electric buggy has more range. "You couldn't have been more wrong and you let it blind you to the rest of the information posted which is what I found interesting..." There was nothing in that post that was particularly interesting, beyond the number of Volts sold last month (which I had seen elsewhere). The remainder was "just you wait" spin or "we're still beating a decade old true pioneering car" spin or pure speculation "initial news on 2015 Volt is exciting," which is what we heard for 4 years about the 2011 Volt, except GM didn't deliver either what Lutz initially promised or the imagined car the fanboys whippped themselves into a frenzy over. Over the most recent 3 months, which includes bonus tax-season sales, the Volt is selling at under a 20K/year rate. I figure sales will rebound somewhat but there's no indication that the Volt is suddenly going to break out of "underachiever" status.
Gas_Master_G All-Star Author Springfield Posts:706 Points:238,660 Joined:Aug 2003	Message Posted: Mar 4, 2013 4:27:13 PM Ignore Gas_Master_G Report Abuse .
Weaslespit Champion Author Cincinnati Posts:8,874 Points:311,570 Joined:Sep 2008	Message Posted: Mar 4, 2013 4:10:58 PM Ignore Weaslespit Report Abuse "About A DECADE AGO." So about 6 years after it launched? Huh.
Weaslespit Champion Author Cincinnati Posts:8,874 Points:311,570 Joined:Sep 2008	Message Posted: Mar 4, 2013 4:04:32 PM Ignore Weaslespit Report Abuse "Much sizzle, very little steak." Your opinion once again. "Then I suggest, in the future, you trim the "competition" out of detfan's posts by proxy." And I suggest, in the future, you make sure you understand to whom the credit for a post was given. You should be acutely aware at this point with regards to my opinion on the comparison between the Volt and the Prius as we have gone through this at great length. Instead you chose to get back on your soap box and argue with an imaginary 'friend' at my expense. You couldn't have been more wrong and you let it blind you to the rest of the information posted which is what I found interesting... [Edited by: Weaslespit at 3/4/2013 4:10:01 PM EST]
Charlie_H Champion Author Twin Cities Posts:1,551 Points:29,815 Joined:Oct 2008	Message Posted: Mar 4, 2013 3:58:35 PM Ignore Charlie_H Report Abuse "Too bad, as there is continued talk about the Volt Gen2 starting to come to light." There was a lot of talk about the Volt Gen1, too, back the day. Much sizzle, very little steak.
Charlie_H Champion Author Twin Cities Posts:1,551 Points:29,815 Joined:Oct 2008	Message Posted: Mar 4, 2013 3:57:32 PM Ignore Charlie_H Report Abuse Then I suggest, in the future, you trim the "competition" out of detfan's posts by proxy. "After how many years (did Toyota let the G1 go)?" About A DECADE AGO. When they built the G2 and showed GM how to build a winning hybrid car.
Weaslespit Champion Author Cincinnati Posts:8,874 Points:311,570 Joined:Sep 2008	Message Posted: Mar 4, 2013 3:45:40 PM Ignore Weaslespit Report Abuse "I can distinguish a difference of opinion." I disagree, since you still can't seem to grasp that for me it is not a competition to be won; "I also can see when somebody's aching for a win so badly that they'll run numbers against a car that went out of production a decade ago." Can I be any more plain than this? Like I said, there was more to detfan's comment than comparing the Prius to the Volt. I see you couldn't get past that. Too bad, as there is continued talk about the Volt Gen2 starting to come to light. "Toyota knew that the Prius 1 didn't have legs and they let it go." After how many years?
Charlie_H Champion Author Twin Cities Posts:1,551 Points:29,815 Joined:Oct 2008	Message Posted: Mar 4, 2013 11:49:09 AM Ignore Charlie_H Report Abuse I can distinguish a difference of opinion. I also can see when somebody's aching for a win so badly that they'll run numbers against a car that went out of production a decade ago. Toyota knew that the Prius 1 didn't have legs and they let it go. GM had the advantage of Toyota's experience and still didn't figure out how to build a car that would sell, even with high gas prices and unprecedented tax credits. I can also distinguish "success" from "failure." The Volt is in the latter category.
Weaslespit Champion Author Cincinnati Posts:8,874 Points:311,570 Joined:Sep 2008	Message Posted: Mar 4, 2013 11:38:08 AM Ignore Weaslespit Report Abuse "Charlie, and remember, though toyota had to improve on the 1st model Prius, they didn't "crush" it and abandon the project of 9 years..." That was a sad decsion by GM, no doubt.
Weaslespit Champion Author Cincinnati Posts:8,874 Points:311,570 Joined:Sep 2008	Message Posted: Mar 4, 2013 11:33:56 AM Ignore Weaslespit Report Abuse "Got cognitive dissonance? You're forwarding a note from detfan crowing over the Volt's "lead" on a car that was available for sale over a decade ago and then immediately denying the idea that it's a competition against a car that was available for sale a decade ago." That's right, you can't distinguish the difference of opinion between two people? Why is this difficult for you? BTW - there was a lot more in that note from detfan besides his 'crowing'... Or did you not get that far? "I wouldn't be an improvement at Toyota; they already know what they're doing. GM could use my help but wouldn't like what I had to say." Keep on hatin'... [Edited by: Weaslespit at 3/4/2013 11:37:33 AM EST]
reb4 Champion Author Chicago Posts:19,101 Points:1,821,150 Joined:Sep 2004	Message Posted: Mar 4, 2013 8:22:57 AM Ignore reb4 Report Abuse Charlie, and remember, though toyota had to improve on the 1st model Prius, they didn't "crush" it and abandon the project of 9 years...
Charlie_H Champion Author Twin Cities Posts:1,551 Points:29,815 Joined:Oct 2008	Message Posted: Mar 3, 2013 11:18:41 PM Ignore Charlie_H Report Abuse "As could you for Toyota." I wouldn't be an improvement at Toyota; they already know what they're doing. GM could use my help but wouldn't like what I had to say.
Charlie_H Champion Author Twin Cities Posts:1,551 Points:29,815 Joined:Oct 2008	Message Posted: Mar 3, 2013 11:03:11 PM Ignore Charlie_H Report Abuse You posted it. I read it. When I was done laughing, I replied. Nothing could be simpler or more straightforward. Now that you have reminded me of it, here's your March 1 post: "Adding the 1,626 February U.S. Volt sales, Voltec only needs to sell another 11,034 units the rest of the year to retain its lead over the Prius over its first 4 years. That is 1104 per month. GM built 3,298 Volt's in February, so they must think sales will increase some this year. For Voltec to continue to lead in year 5, almost 2,500 per month will have to be sold, minus whatever lead they will have after this year. Initial news on the 2015 Volt is exciting!! --Courtesy of detfan. " And a more recent post by you: "You are as you still seem to think it is a competition to be won (Volt sales to outpace Prius sales in the same year after launch comparatively). It is not." Got cognitive dissonance? You're forwarding a note from detfan crowing over the Volt's "lead" on a car that was available for sale over a decade ago and then immediately denying the idea that it's a competition against a car that was available for sale a decade ago. And the more I think about it, the more I think the Volt is in serious trouble. July 2011 aside, sales did generally build through December of 2011. However, in 2012 Sales peaked in late Summer and Fall and then fell off and even the end of year tax credit frenzy couldn't bring sales back to those levels. Coming up next, GM plans to widen "Voltec" appeal by introducing a far more expensive Cadillac version. Clearly, GM is on a quest to make "Voltec" available as an "everyman" car as long as "everyman" is a One Per Center.
Weaslespit Champion Author Cincinnati Posts:8,874 Points:311,570 Joined:Sep 2008	Message Posted: Mar 3, 2013 10:16:04 PM Ignore Weaslespit Report Abuse "You could get a job in GM marketing. Heck, you could run GM marketing. Maybe you wrote their playbook. They eat that stuff up." As could you for Toyota. Interesting that you only come around when this and the Volt thread are active (since the GM Renaissance thread is now locked). Haters gonna hate...
Charlie_H Champion Author Twin Cities Posts:1,551 Points:29,815 Joined:Oct 2008	Message Posted: Mar 3, 2013 10:00:20 PM Ignore Charlie_H Report Abuse "Wrong - hybrids like the Prius don't compete against those with EV capabilities." You could get a job in GM marketing. Heck, you could run GM marketing. Maybe you wrote their playbook. They eat that stuff up. Sadly, it's wrong. The Volt does compete against the Prius for the cash of people who think gas shouldn't be wasted or who just want to save money on operating costs or need a hedge against high fuel prices and the Prius comes in at a price point that's very approachable for its mission. The Prius does not compete for the hard core EV looney-toon but there's too few of those to matter and the C-Max Energi is a better value proposition, so the Volt has its hands full with that. "To see if the Volt gets to 900K in sales? You betcha. It ain't gonna happen next year or in 5 years - just like the Prius..." Yeah. "Just you wait." There's no indication that GM has learned anything in the past 13 years. Toyota took two tries to get the Prius right, hit 100K/year in the US on the second and now sells a million of those per year, in addition to a sizeable variety of other hybrids that contribute to profit and share. The Volt is GM's (let me count... Silverado HD BAS, Yukaburbahoe Two-Mode, Epsilon BAS-I, Silvierra Two-Mode) 5th swing at a gas-electric drivetrain and, between last month and this, even armed with taxpayer cash, it's selling at a 17K/year rate. "For a share of 3% of total cars sold?" Go back and look at the list. Where hybrid powertrains are an option, hybrids are doing well. It's as mainstream as a V6 or more. More cost-effective hybrid options will increase hybrid share to match. [Edited by: Charlie_H at 3/3/2013 10:10:14 PM EST]
Weaslespit Champion Author Cincinnati Posts:8,874 Points:311,570 Joined:Sep 2008	Message Posted: Mar 3, 2013 9:31:58 PM Ignore Weaslespit Report Abuse "It is a competition to be won but not 13 years from today and not against a car that went on sale 13 years before today." Wrong - hybrids like the Prius don't compete against those with EV capabilities. <And GM's fans are perfectly content to say, "we're beating the stats of a car we never competed with" and "just you wait... 13 years."> To see if the Volt gets to 900K in sales? You betcha. It ain't gonna happen next year or in 5 years - just like the Prius... "Hybrids are mainstream and it's time for GM to figure out a way to make money in that space without shaking down the taxpayers." For a share of 3% of total cars sold? How much more money do you want them to spend towards such a miniscule segment? I'd rather it go towards a diesel Cruze, etc.
Charlie_H Champion Author Twin Cities Posts:1,551 Points:29,815 Joined:Oct 2008	Message Posted: Mar 3, 2013 7:33:26 PM Ignore Charlie_H Report Abuse "You are as you still seem to think it is a competition to be won (Volt sales to outpace Prius sales in the same year after launch comparatively). It is not." It is a competition to be won but not 13 years from today and not against a car that went on sale 13 years before today. It is a competition to be won today and GM seems perfectly content to lose that competition, year on year on year. And GM's fans are perfectly content to say, "we're beating the stats of a car we never competed with" and "just you wait... 13 years." In 2004, we reached the point where HEVs were put into production not as curiosities but as cars to win market share. GM is still marketing curiosities. It is certainly true that the hybrid market remains small. However, they don't compete in major market spaces, including minivans, pickup trucks, CUVs and SUVs. GM certainly has offerings in those spaces but they do not compete, being grossly overpriced for the market. More competition would increase hybrid market share. Here's sales from January for models where hybrid is a drivetrain option: - Camry hybrid: 12% of Camry sales; this is similar to the V6 take rate. - Avalon hybrid: 21% of Avalon sales. It may be that the Avalon hybrid accounts for most of the recent increase in Avalon sales. - Fusion Hybrid: 13.5% of Fusion sales. - Lexus ES Hybrid: 26% of ES sales. - Lexus RX Hybrid: 14% of RX sales. And those market shares were all achieved in the face of low fuel prices. Hybrids are mainstream and it's time for GM to figure out a way to make money in that space without shaking down the taxpayers.
Weaslespit Champion Author Cincinnati Posts:8,874 Points:311,570 Joined:Sep 2008	Message Posted: Mar 3, 2013 7:00:48 PM Ignore Weaslespit Report Abuse "Fact PIP outsold Volt in 1st year sales significantly..." Hopefully, since DHAM was significantly short in production ability in the first year.
Weaslespit Champion Author Cincinnati Posts:8,874 Points:311,570 Joined:Sep 2008	Message Posted: Mar 3, 2013 6:59:27 PM Ignore Weaslespit Report Abuse "The hybrid market is mature" And still only 2.9% of all vehicles sold in 2012. Ouch. "OK, not 13 years behind - and not 16 - but merely 9 and no signs of catching up." ~7K sold in 2011, ~23K sold in 2012. Think it will outsell 23K on 2013? "I'm not arguing with detfan, it's you that's saying, "Guess we'll have to wait 13 years to revisit how GM is doing comparatively." You are as you still seem to think it is a competition to be won (Volt sales to outpace Prius sales in the same year after launch comparatively). It is not. "When do they build a real hybrid or other advanced tech that people will want and which will make them money?" Seems like plenty of people want the Volt - if you read my previous link its price has nowhere to go but down thus profits have nowhere to go but up.
reb4 Champion Author Chicago Posts:19,101 Points:1,821,150 Joined:Sep 2004	Message Posted: Mar 3, 2013 4:57:26 PM Ignore reb4 Report Abuse I see GM is forcasting 36K for Volt in USA for 2013.. How is the calculations coming into play again???1st sale of Volt took place in 2010.. (December) 1st sale of Prius took place in 2000.. (July) So far Pip is out pacing the sales for Volt though... Fact PIP outsold Volt in 1st year sales significantly...
Charlie_H Champion Author Twin Cities Posts:1,551 Points:29,815 Joined:Oct 2008	Message Posted: Mar 3, 2013 4:22:05 PM Ignore Charlie_H Report Abuse I'm perfectly focussed. Where's GM's mainstream-selling hybrid? The hybrid market is mature. Almost 1 million Priuses are sold worldwide now, every year. Ford offers 2 full hybrids at competitive prices. Honda is retrenching with something new. GM, until recently, was the world's biggest automaker with the fanciest world HQ. Where's their car? OK, not 13 years behind - and not 16 - but merely 9 and no signs of catching up. The Prius went 100K units/year in 2004. Where's GM's 100K hybrid? A full 7 years after the Prius 2nd generation, GM delivered another slow-selling hybrid, it's 3rd, 4th or 5th, depending on how you count them (and ignoring rebadges altogether) and after 2 years on the market, it's still a slow-selling car, with sales falling off predictably when the tax year closes out I'm not arguing with detfan, it's you that's saying, "Guess we'll have to wait 13 years to revisit how GM is doing comparatively." Judging from the trends, 13 years from now, the Prius will still be selling well, Toyota will add something else for another million units, the Volt will be dead and buried and GM will be on to its 10th or 11th slow selling hybrid. When does it stop? When does GM get a clue? When do they build a real hybrid or other advanced tech that people will want and which will make them money?
Weaslespit Champion Author Cincinnati Posts:8,874 Points:311,570 Joined:Sep 2008	Message Posted: Mar 3, 2013 3:18:15 PM Ignore Weaslespit Report Abuse "And why should GM be 13 years behind?" Stay focused. The Volt was launched in 2011 (OK, very late 2010) - you are claiming that today the Prius is selling close to a million units, be it 16 years after it launched. So, in year 16 let's see where the Volt is at. Look me up in 2026 or so... "The GM fans seem to think it's OK, perfectly normal, all systems go, for GM's current offering to be beating the record that the competition established 13 years ago." Why are you still arguing with detfan? It isn't about beating anybody... [Edited by: Weaslespit at 3/3/2013 3:19:33 PM EST]