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Author Topic: The Myth of "Energy Independence" Back to Topics
PerspicacityJoe

Rookie Author
Illinois

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Message Posted: Jun 9, 2013 1:54:56 AM

Hardly a day goes by that you don't hear some politician (invariably one in the pocket of big oil, what a coincidence) or some talking point doofus proclaiming "energy independence" for America if we just remove all environmental concerns and all restrictions and let the big oil companies "drill baby drill". However, these days America is a net exporter of oil, and yet we continue to pay more and more for gas. We have to purchase our oil products from multinational corporations just like everyone else on the planet. The fact is, the amount of oil produced in this country has nothing to do with energy independence, and here is why...When a barrel of oil is pulled out of the ground in Nevada, who owns that oil? Not Nevada. Not the USA. The owner of that barrel of oil is the corporation that pulled it out of the ground, and that barrel of oil is then refined into whatever they want and sold on the world market. There is absolutely NO requirement placed on ANY oil company that the oil they pull out of American ground must stay in America. Therefore, simply put, as long as we remain enslaved to a fossil fuel that is an international commodity, we can never have true energy independence.
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brerrabbitTX
Champion Author Houston

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Message Posted: Aug 1, 2013 2:23:45 PM

Bringing e-15 into this discussion is sorta of strange. Yes it could possibly allow us to export more oil but keep in mind the reason we are exporting a lot of gas and diesel today is because of the RFA and ethanol blending. Refiners have to have blend credits to offset how much gas and diesel they produce. They don't blend the ethanol into gas at the refinery but rather that happens at the terminals and in many cases it is someone other than the refiner doing it. So the refiner has to buy the credit (which currently sells for $1.00 a gallon which gets passed on to the consumer) or not make the product, or export it. So in many instances it is better economically for the refiner to export product because that way they don't have to buy the credits.

Goin to e-15 would create more credits but the refiners would still have to buy what they don't create themselves so there would still be an incentive for them to export products.
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alphanyr
Champion Author Connecticut

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Message Posted: Aug 1, 2013 11:33:27 AM

ok
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borsht
Champion Author Oakland

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Message Posted: Aug 1, 2013 11:19:34 AM

If we change to E15, we can export more oil.

I don't know about Nevada, but Alaska has done pretty well with managing their oil and reducing the tax burden of the citizens of Alaska.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alaska_Permanent_Fund
Alaska set up a permanent Fund to take a substantial part of the oil revenue out of the Politian's hand and placed it in a trust fund for future generations when the oil runs out.
The fund is now setting at over $42Billion .
And no one in Alaska is complaining about their taxes.

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grampi47
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Aug 1, 2013 9:17:15 AM

rabbit guy

I gotta hand it to Texas...how they've managed to accel economically when the rest of the country is stagnent is amazing...my hat's off to the state...and no thanks to Owebama of course!
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brerrabbitTX
Champion Author Houston

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Message Posted: Aug 1, 2013 9:09:49 AM

grampi,
Here in Texas there is not a whole lotta love for the current administration.

The numbers are not from the White House. They are what is really happening. Since 2008 and the downturn fully more than 50% of the job growth Obama is taking credit for has come in the Lone Star State. As a matter of fact the Obama administration has offcially declared war on Texas. They don't like or governer or us. Texas has been the driver for a lot of jobs. And I will say many have been in the oil industry. Our governer (who I don't really care for one way or the other) goes around the country solicitiong companies to move to Texas. As a result on his latest trip to New York the Daily Show created a fake commercial the said basically F*** Texas!. Why? Because we are growing economically. Exxon Mobil is moving their headquarters to Houston as many others have. Texas has a good chunk of the US's Fortune 500 companies operating here. We have no State income taxes, low business taxes, a strong workforce and are really a pretty decent place to live.

No those are not Obama numbers, they are Texas numbers, Obama just wants to take credit for them.

[Edited by: brerrabbitTX at 8/1/2013 9:11:25 AM EST]
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ramboid
Sophomore Author Toledo

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Message Posted: Jul 31, 2013 3:07:31 PM

I love oil for the jobs it gives us. New jobs created paying $70,000 entry level. Companies are taking kids out of high school and training them, Engineering grads are starting at $100,000, In places like the Dakotas, Texas and New Mexico recruiters are scouring the fast food restaurants and retail stores offering these workers these jobs. Oil is organic.
In Obama's America, do you and your children want to work 2 jobs at Walmart and McDonalds or have a good paying job with oil as the driver of the economy. Do you want your cities to look like Detroit and Chicago or do you want them thriving with jobs that produce wealth and taxpayers.
As the number of jobs and taxpayers increase your state will be better able to meet its pension obligations and support its public state and city
workers and governments. We don't have to return to the 70's. We will still have environmental emission controls. The choice id yours, America. What do you want; prosperity or poverty?
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grampi47
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Jul 31, 2013 2:57:12 PM

rabbit guy

Is all that according to Owebama?...he's always saying he's created jobs, or he's fixed this, or improved that when in reality he's made things worse...
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brerrabbitTX
Champion Author Houston

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Message Posted: Jul 31, 2013 2:27:40 PM

"This is exactly why we have a conflict of interest. The oil companies' goal is to make as much money as they possibly can for their product...while this might be good for THEIR bottom line, it's terrible for the rest of the economy...think of how much better off our economy would be with $1.99 gas vs $3.99 gas...other countries with an abundance of supply use that abundance to lower their gas prices...we could do the same here if there weren't so much greed throughout the industry..." Actually there is significant data to refute this argument. Studies show that based on the number of people employed in the energy sector in the US, the number of individual and institutional investors that hold energy stock, and the latest oil boom in the US underpinned by the current oil price have actually contributed significantly to the US economy. The economic recovery that has occured since the fall in 2008 would still be lingering significantly if not for the oil companies investments in domestic drilling and employee thousands of workers. Additionally the current price of fuel in the US is right in line with the Obama administrations expectations and desires. The current price level has effectively curbed demand and spurred further investment in alternative fuel sources aided greatly by federal subsidies to the wind and solar energy sectors. More Federal money will be given to producers and developers of wind and solar energy this year than all other forms of energy combined. The number is around $10 billion. Given that the price works for Obama and his administration, has spurred job growth, and alternative fuel investment I would not look for things to change any time soon.

[Edited by: brerrabbitTX at 7/31/2013 2:29:18 PM EST]
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MertieMan
Champion Author Lexington

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Message Posted: Jul 31, 2013 9:19:15 AM

I just saw a report the other day that investors, speculators and banks are keeping oil and pump prices up alone. Evidently there is absolutely no regulations that pertain to these imbeciles, and they just run rampant over oil, which in turn keeps the pump prices extremely high. None of these bums actually take delivery of what they buy.
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grampi47
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Jul 31, 2013 8:53:55 AM

"Keeping all the oil here would not lower prices because continued drilling would cease because oil companies would invest in other countries to find oil and leave the US. Oil prices might drop for a while but soon enough our imports would increase and we would be paying what the rest of the world wants to charge us for oil."

This is exactly why we have a conflict of interest. The oil companies' goal is to make as much money as they possibly can for their product...while this might be good for THEIR bottom line, it's terrible for the rest of the economy...think of how much better off our economy would be with $1.99 gas vs $3.99 gas...other countries with an abundance of supply use that abundance to lower their gas prices...we could do the same here if there weren't so much greed throughout the industry...
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brerrabbitTX
Champion Author Houston

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Message Posted: Jul 30, 2013 5:04:31 PM

Well technically the oil in the ground is the property of the person that owns the land and the mineral rights to the land. He contracts with a company to produce the oil and in return he gets a royalty payment. Basically for allowing the oil company to drill he gets a piece of the action. He does not have to pay for the drilling costs or lose money if it is a dry hole. Once produced and royalty paid then it belongs to the oil company.

This is all a function of our individual rights as secured by the bill of rights and our constitution.

Now if America does not want the oil to leave the country then they can increase tariffs on oil exports to make it economically undesirable to sell it but seldom do they outright forbid it. The only time they do that is if you try to sell it to a boycotted country. In other words you could not sell oil directly to Cuba.

Keeping all the oil here would not lower prices because continued drilling would cease because oil companies would invest in other countries to find oil and leave the US. Oil prices might drop for a while but soon enough our imports would increase and we would be paying what the rest of the world wants to charge us for oil.

As far as refined products leaving the country, yes it is happening a lot now. Part of the reason is because South America has not built any refineries for longer than we have. Part of the reason is the RFA. It requires refiners to have RIN credits for all the gas it makes and sells in the US. Refiners don't blend ethanol into gas and create the credit in many instances so they have to buy them on the open market. A RIN credit sells for $1 a gallon right now. To avoid having to purchase it the refiner can export the gallon because no credit is required for exported gas and diesel.

All of this factors into the economic decisions that US refiners make.
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cools1611
Champion Author Providence

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Message Posted: Jul 30, 2013 2:53:00 PM

You are right!!!!!
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grampi47
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Jul 30, 2013 1:39:25 PM

If all of the oil that was refined here stayed here we'd have $1.99 gas right now...
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skydone7
Sophomore Author Kansas City

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Message Posted: Jul 29, 2013 8:59:45 PM

Hmmm....
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bluenvoy
Champion Author Nashville

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Message Posted: Jul 4, 2013 10:07:21 AM

The more we produce and refine means we are better off no mater what happens in other countries. Big oil is not the enemy, the people that want to hurt them are.
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nichols
Champion Author Halifax

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Message Posted: Jul 4, 2013 9:59:55 AM

I don't think oil companies are allowed to sell crude overseas
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Cooey
Veteran Author Manitoba

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Message Posted: Jun 26, 2013 3:49:57 PM

Well thank goodness for Canada from where USA buys more oil than any other single country.
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PithyOpiner
Champion Author Stockton

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Message Posted: Jun 26, 2013 3:02:40 PM

That's how free enterprise works, Joe. Embrace it or move to Cuba.
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bluenvoy
Champion Author Nashville

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Message Posted: Jun 11, 2013 9:39:31 AM

It would still be better to buy our oil here rather than ship our $$$ somewhere else.
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thirstyV8suv
All-Star Author Columbus

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Message Posted: Jun 10, 2013 9:41:51 PM

You need to make a correction to your post: America is a net exporter of refined products such as gasoline and distillates but we are still a net importer of crude oil.
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timewalker
Sophomore Author Indiana

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Message Posted: Jun 10, 2013 8:35:13 PM

Money talks, especially to Big Oil interests. Pocketful of politicians gets Big Oil pretty much anything they want.
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EvPv
Champion Author Maine

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Message Posted: Jun 10, 2013 6:42:58 PM

the higher oil prices spurred on major searches and tech breakthroughs in the oil industry in the past decade.
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WEPSMAN
Champion Author South Dakota

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Message Posted: Jun 10, 2013 6:29:12 PM

It is all about profit. It does not matter what the business is, they are out to make money. If the money is exporting, that is what they are going to do. The government can tax it, but probably will not make things cheaper here. They will pull less out to keep their profits up.
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contiki
Champion Author Ontario

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Message Posted: Jun 10, 2013 1:49:33 PM

OPEC contols world prices of oil........

Here in Canada, Alberta has much oil and yet we Canadians still pay world prices and the government says that our taxes would be much higher if it wasn't for this oil in Alberta......

America would probably be the same..............

OPEC contols the money on a barrel of oil and have for many years now....

They kept the supply low to keep the price of a barrel of oil higher.......
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PithyOpiner
Champion Author Stockton

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Message Posted: Jun 10, 2013 1:41:29 PM

You make a lot of sense, 'cacity Joe.
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TuNnL
Champion Author Honolulu

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Message Posted: Jun 9, 2013 8:07:23 AM

George W. Bush = “New World Order” global elite.

Barack H. Obama = “New World Order” global elite.

What has changed? Nothing that will make us more energy independent.
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MertieMan
Champion Author Lexington

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Message Posted: Jun 9, 2013 7:46:18 AM

Well, slap my britches, a rookie with some sence. Well put, and you can bet politics also plays a big part in this scenario as well.
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DanFMA
Champion Author Massachusetts

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Message Posted: Jun 9, 2013 6:54:47 AM

Very true.
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valby
Champion Author Massachusetts

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Message Posted: Jun 9, 2013 6:20:44 AM

So very true.
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dvx4002004
Sophomore Author Medford

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Message Posted: Jun 9, 2013 5:05:25 AM

True
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WhiskeyBurner
Veteran Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Jun 9, 2013 2:34:00 AM

Too bad this forum doesn't have a "Like" button, I would use it for your post there Joe!
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