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Author Topic: What's the definition of price gouging?' Back to Topics
grampi47

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Illinois

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Message Posted: Apr 24, 2013 8:56:29 AM

I know some people in here claim that gouging can only take place when a single gas station is charging a lot higher price for their gas as compared to the other stations in that area. I don't understand how the big nationwide price hike that took place back in January (remember when gas prices rose 25% over a 3 week time period nationwide, here in IL prices went from $3.15 to $3.95) is not considered gouging. Even if this technically isn't gouging, it still isn't right and should not be allowed...
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HEDGEHOGS
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Jun 10, 2013 9:38:31 AM

when y'all get it figured out, report it to your states attorney general, rub a lamp three times, and maybe then the gas price gouging will get shifted to something else.

[Edited by: HEDGEHOGS at 6/10/2013 9:45:02 AM EST]
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2Tall
Champion Author Maryland

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Message Posted: Jun 10, 2013 8:01:17 AM

reaching in your back pocket!
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grampi47
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: May 13, 2013 8:32:54 AM

Zoop

You made my day! Since as you say prices aren't fixed, that means I can find gas sold at discount prices...please tell me where I can find these discounted prices...
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ZZZoop
Champion Author Virginia

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Message Posted: May 11, 2013 9:55:23 AM

>>Look up the word in the dictionary...that's the oil industry...<<

As they say in the broadcasting booth, "Swing...and a miss!"

From Wiki:

"A cartel is a formal (explicit) 'agreement' among competing firms. It is a formal organization of producers and manufacturers that agree to fix prices, marketing, and production."

Now, grampi, I'm sure you think Wikipedia is controlled by Big Oil or the government, so you can provide your own definition.

That being said, where is there any evidence among American oil companies of an explicit (or even implicit) agreement to fix prices? Such practices would constitute a clear violation of U.S. anti-trust laws, all of which apply to American oil companies.
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giwan
Champion Author Michigan

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Message Posted: May 10, 2013 9:00:14 AM

What about the current jump in prices especially with so much in reserves
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grampi47
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: May 10, 2013 8:57:52 AM

"As for your cartel comment, please explain."

Look up the word in the dictionary...that's the oil industry...
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grampi47
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: May 10, 2013 8:56:48 AM

rabbit guy

The difference between you and I is, I don't consider the lies and propaganda put out by the oil industry and the gov as facts...you do...
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ZZZoop
Champion Author Virginia

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Message Posted: May 9, 2013 6:53:01 PM

>>...not as long as they keep getting away with charging whatever they want...<<
>>You're right about the oil industry not being able to charge whatever they want for their product,...<<

A fine illustration of grampi's incoherence as both statements originated from his keyboard.>>Since they have no competition in the market they can demand a premium for their products...and they get it!<<

Minimal competition between energy sources doesn't mean that there's no competition within the market for a single energy source.

As for your cartel comment, please explain.
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brerrabbitTX
Champion Author Houston

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Message Posted: May 9, 2013 4:45:39 PM

Really grampi?

They quote them, they use them, but I doubt they believe them.

Regardless of the information presented to you, you will not accept any other version of the world other than your own. You are amazing in that regard in that by this point most people would have left by now, admitted defeat or simply faded away. But you my friend stand in the face of facts, logic, common thinking and common sense and stand your ground against any an all comers.

Cheers, grampi and keep fighting the good fight regardless of what others say.
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grampi47
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: May 9, 2013 3:27:50 PM

rabbit guy

They quote and use them, but I doubt they believe them...as no sane person would...if those numbers are accurate, then I guess we'll be seeing the oil industry going under...if that doesn't happen then I guess we'll know the truth....

[Edited by: grampi47 at 5/9/2013 3:29:28 PM EST]
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brerrabbitTX
Champion Author Houston

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Message Posted: May 9, 2013 3:16:36 PM

rabbit guy

This is why I don't believe their profit margins are less than 10%...when the automotive industry perfects vehicles that don't run on crude oil products, such as electric, CNG, etc, and they will, that's gonna take a huge bite out of demand. If oil company profit margins are as slim as they claim, this would put them out of business. That won't happen. Why? Because their profit margin is much higher than they claim...they will lower their prices because they'll have no choice and they will still be around...they will just have to live with more reasonable profits instead of the insane ones they're used to now... Should have stopped before you went this far grampi, because the one common thread across all of the shows you claim to watch and listen to is the fact that they believe financial reports, they believe SEC filings, IRS filings, EIA governmental production reports, 10K's. 10Q's and all of the many reports that I have quoted over the years to disprove you and your points. In fact the people you listed as being the ones you listen to quote the very same documents I do as proof of the numbers. So you are at an impass because to continue to say that the numbers are wrong, or lies, then you have basically thrown any credible proof of anything you have ever said right out the window because you will be in direct contridiction with your "sources"
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brerrabbitTX
Champion Author Houston

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Message Posted: May 9, 2013 3:10:34 PM

You have a billion dollars.

I have a million dollars.

You invest you money in a one year CD that returns $100 million dollars.

I am a little more risky, throw the money into a start up company dealing in high tech products. We do well and make a 50% return our first year. It returns $500,000.

The world at large looks at the results of our investments and lauds me as the hero for developing a high tech product that is cool.

The world says you are a crook and a scoundrel who oppress the poor because you made $100 million in profits because you are a heartless greedy corporate crook.

Sound familiar?
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DoctorV
Champion Author Detroit

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Message Posted: May 9, 2013 2:50:51 PM

Okay, that's an integrated major. My fault, I'll be more specific: name a pure oil production company, we'll go look at their financials.

[Edited by: DoctorV at 5/9/2013 2:53:37 PM EST]
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grampi47
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: May 9, 2013 2:48:00 PM

"Name an oil producer grampi."

Exxon-Mobil...any more stupid questions?
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grampi47
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: May 9, 2013 2:46:55 PM

rabbit guy

This is why I don't believe their profit margins are less than 10%...when the automotive industry perfects vehicles that don't run on crude oil products, such as electric, CNG, etc, and they will, that's gonna take a huge bite out of demand. If oil company profit margins are as slim as they claim, this would put them out of business. That won't happen. Why? Because their profit margin is much higher than they claim...they will lower their prices because they'll have no choice and they will still be around...they will just have to live with more reasonable profits instead of the insane ones they're used to now...
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DoctorV
Champion Author Detroit

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Message Posted: May 9, 2013 2:30:51 PM

Name an oil producer grampi.
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brerrabbitTX
Champion Author Houston

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Message Posted: May 9, 2013 2:18:25 PM

The very fact that the big oil companies are called integrated oil companies is because they participate in all facets of the business. Therefore when the investment community (ie mutual funds, hedge funds, individual investors) look at where to invest their money they look at a lot of factors, stability, risk, earning potential. etc. Oil companies are not sexy because their overall integrated return is less than 10%. So grampi your arguement about gross margin on the price of oil makes no sense.

This is not a difficult concept at all but your absolute unwillingness to understand it baffles me.

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1OILMAN
Champion Author Alabama

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Message Posted: May 9, 2013 12:46:59 PM

Gramps why would you ask a question to which you obviously don't want a answer to?
Remember when you retired at 60 and life expectancy was 65, so on average one only drew SS for 5 years? Now they draw it for 30-40 years. I consider that gouging.
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grampi47
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Message Posted: May 9, 2013 12:35:15 PM

rabbit guy

They must not keep the transcripts long enough to include those discussions then, some are a year or two old by now, but they did provide that info.

You're right about the oil industry not being able to charge whatever they want for their product, but the fact that they operate in a cartel market allows them to charge a lot more for their product then they'd be able to if they had to compete against other energy sources. Since they have no competition in the market they can demand a premium for their products...and they get it!

[Edited by: grampi47 at 5/9/2013 12:36:58 PM EST]
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brerrabbitTX
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Message Posted: May 9, 2013 12:21:49 PM

rabbit guy

The obvious answer to your question is, they won't...not as long as they keep getting away with charging whatever they want...

grampi, your ignorance knows no bounds.

Definition of market price: the price at which a buyer and a seller are willing to transact....

Now you say oil companies can charge whatever they want. No they can't! If the market is $95 a barrel then per your logic a seller of oil could up and charge $200 a barrel if he wanted to. Well no he cannot, the market would not pay it.

Your arguments make no sense, can be easily disprovved, and real world logic is thrown out the window.

Look at a convience store. They shoot for an overall gross profit margin of 30% and usually come real close to that. Included in that 30% total gross profit margin is all sorts of items, tobacco, soft drinks, fountain sodas, candy, snacks etc. Now I know that profit margin on fountain beverages is close to 90% which is a rip off according to many. Profit margine on tobacco is only 12 to 14%. But most importantly the overall is 30%. Now using your myopic and strange theroy and saying that everything (item) should have a fair return of 10% then effectively you would drive the gross profit margin down into the 4 to 5% range which could not cover overheads, which would mean you could not operate and would be bankrupt and out of business in short order.

Businesses are measured by total return.

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brerrabbitTX
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Message Posted: May 9, 2013 12:08:15 PM

None of the links are showing the profit margins for only the sale of crude, they are showing margins for the entire company...let's assume for argument sake my figure of 400% is way off...if you can't admit that the net profit on the sales of crude is way more than 10%, then there's no sense in even having this debate. I'm saying if the profit margin on crude sales was no higher than the profit margins throughout the rest of the industry, the price of gas and diesel would be considerably lower...we both know the profit margin on crude sales is way more than 10%...

Wrong Grampi! Wrong, Wrong, Wrong! Everyone of these links and the links to the economic performance of each of the companies show exactly what they made selling oil. They made less than 10% profit margins. They are integrated oil companies and the net results of exploring, finding, producing, delivering, refining, marketing oil, natural gas, natural gas liquids and their associated products was that they returned profit margins of less than 10%. Black and White the data is there in many forms. You cannot seperate out one function of the process. You have not provided any links to your lies. I have spent two days looking through the shows and people you say you get your information from and I have found zero discussions or transcripts indicating anything you have said.
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grampi47
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: May 9, 2013 11:13:16 AM

"Typical double standard. It's obvious you got in over your head with your conspiracy theory and circular arguments and lack of any sources or data."

I see. So you're one of those who believes everything the gov tells them, and anyone who believes otherwise is just a conspiracy theory nut...why don't you crawl back under the rock you crawled out from under?
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DoctorV
Champion Author Detroit

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Message Posted: May 9, 2013 11:06:27 AM

"You'd just say they're lying"

Typical double standard. It's obvious you got in over your head with your conspiracy theory and circular arguments and lack of any sources or data.
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grampi47
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: May 9, 2013 10:55:45 AM

rabbit guy

The obvious answer to your question is, they won't...not as long as they keep getting away with charging whatever they want...
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grampi47
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: May 9, 2013 10:53:16 AM

"No we don't. Please show us the information."

Why? You'd just say they're lying if I showed you anything that disputes your oil company generated rhetoric...you seem to believe the oil industry is squeaky clean and never does anything crooked or unethical and nothing is going to change your opinion...
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brerrabbitTX
Champion Author Houston

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Message Posted: May 9, 2013 10:39:45 AM

grampi,

If their total profit margin is less than 10% then it would suggest that lowering the revenues received for any item in the supply chain could put the profit margin in the negative range very quickly which would suggest that it cannot be done. One of the things people like yourself completely fail to understan or acknowledge is the fact that oil prices are where they are because there are plenty of people, companies, and countries who are willing to pay that price for it. Why would any company who produces oil sell for less than market value.
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DoctorV
Champion Author Detroit

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Message Posted: May 9, 2013 10:20:14 AM

"...we both know the profit margin on crude sales is way more than 10%."

No we don't. Please show us the information.
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grampi47
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: May 9, 2013 10:10:13 AM

rabbit guy

None of the links are showing the profit margins for only the sale of crude, they are showing margins for the entire company...let's assume for argument sake my figure of 400% is way off...if you can't admit that the net profit on the sales of crude is way more than 10%, then there's no sense in even having this debate. I'm saying if the profit margin on crude sales was no higher than the profit margins throughout the rest of the industry, the price of gas and diesel would be considerably lower...we both know the profit margin on crude sales is way more than 10%...
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DoctorV
Champion Author Detroit

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Message Posted: May 9, 2013 10:01:07 AM

"crude sales net a profit of 400%"

In your mind.
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brerrabbitTX
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Message Posted: May 9, 2013 9:48:11 AM

"When every part of the chain in the oil industry makes a net profit of 10% or less, but crude sales net a profit of 400%, it's pretty clear THAT'S unreasonable... "

Oil Companies profit margins are less that 10% for all of their operations.

Oil Profit Margins 6.2%

Oil Profit Margins average 6.2% from 2006 to 2010

Virginia Companies Profits vs Big Oil

From the article

"We compared the profit margins of oil companies to those of three major Virginia companies: Dominion Virginia Power, Altria and Norfolk Southern.

Between 2007 and 2009, profit margins at ExxonMobil and Royal Dutch Shell ranged from a high of 10.0 percent to a low of 4.4 percent. Dominion, a regulated utility company, had an 11.5 percent profit margin in 2008 and an 8.7 percent margin in 2009. Norfolk Southern, one of the nation’s largest railroads, had a profit margin between 13 percent and 16.1 percent each of the three years.

Altria, the nation’s largest tobacco company had a profit margin of 52.4 percent in 2007. It’s margin was 25.5 percent in 2008 and 13.6 percent in 2009.

So these three companies, each in different industries, consistently out-performed the major oil companies. But because the oil giants all had much higher revenues -- between $285 billion and $470 billion compared to revenues around $10 billion for Norfolk Southern, $15 billion for Dominion and $20 billion for Altria -- the oil profits seem look more grandiose."

Grampi, all of this is what I find when I go searching your sources for information on oil costs and profit margins. Are you sure you are hearing what they are saying? Because everything I find, page after page after page contridicts everything you post here.

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grampi47
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: May 9, 2013 8:26:36 AM

"And who is the arbiter of "reasonable" or "fair"? How is a business supposed to price its product against such subjective standards?"

When every part of the chain in the oil industry makes a net profit of 10% or less, but crude sales net a profit of 400%, it's pretty clear THAT'S unreasonable...
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Nomofriggincube
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Message Posted: May 8, 2013 8:36:01 PM

$4.79 per gallon when no other station is charging more than $3.65
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ZZZoop
Champion Author Virginia

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Message Posted: May 8, 2013 8:06:53 PM

>>...a seller prices goods or commodities much higher than is considered reasonable or fair<<

And who is the arbiter of "reasonable" or "fair"? How is a business supposed to price its product against such subjective standards?
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1OILMAN
Champion Author Alabama

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Message Posted: May 8, 2013 4:57:56 PM

Price gouging is the new fair price established in times of panic.
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Mopar4me
Champion Author Peoria

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Message Posted: May 8, 2013 4:41:37 PM

Price gouging is a pejorative term referring to a situation in which a seller prices goods or commodities much higher than is considered reasonable or fair
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DoctorV
Champion Author Detroit

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Message Posted: May 8, 2013 4:40:30 PM

Do now you're discrediting your own sources?
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1OILMAN
Champion Author Alabama

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Message Posted: May 8, 2013 4:30:07 PM

You know this "causing" can go on and on if you give it its head.
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grampi47
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: May 8, 2013 3:57:22 PM

"Where does grampi think those news outlets get their data from? Has Lou Dobbs worked in the oil fields? Michael Medved an accountant for an oil firm? If they have any oil production figures, they got it from someone on the business. Or they're misinformed. Or using outdated data. Or lying."

Of course they are because they have so much at stake with the oil industry...it isn't like the oil industry has anything to gain by deceiving consumers...and if you believe that, you are gullible...
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grampi47
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: May 8, 2013 3:53:40 PM

"Except when they say it only costs $5 or $20 to produce a barrel of oil."

Why would THEY report that? They don't want us to know how little it costs to bring oil to market...
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DoctorV
Champion Author Detroit

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Message Posted: May 8, 2013 3:52:48 PM

Where does grampi think those news outlets get their data from? Has Lou Dobbs worked in the oil fields? Michael Medved an accountant for an oil firm? If they have any oil production figures, they got it from someone on the business. Or they're misinformed. Or using outdated data. Or lying.
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brerrabbitTX
Champion Author Houston

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Message Posted: May 8, 2013 1:33:10 PM

What caused hig oil prices.

Grampi thus far in an exhaustive search of the CNN website I have yet to find a show or article that has said anything about the production costs of oil in the past six months. But don't worry if it's there I will find it. In the meantime enjoy some of the stuff I randomly find that explains questions asked here. Like everyone who says speculators cause oil prices to go up! Read the link from CNN, this guy does not agree.
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DoctorV
Champion Author Detroit

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Message Posted: May 8, 2013 9:26:58 AM

"I don't blindly believe everything the oil industry and the gov reports"

Except when they say it only costs $5 or $20 to produce a barrel of oil.
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grampi47
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: May 8, 2013 9:26:47 AM

CNN, Fox News, Bill O'Reilly, Lou Dobbs, Micheal Medved, and Dennis Miller...
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grampi47
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: May 8, 2013 9:24:38 AM

"In grampis's world the truth is what he says it is, what he thinks it is, what he thinks it should be."

It might seem that way to you, just because I don't blindly believe everything the oil industry and the gov reports...
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brerrabbitTX
Champion Author Houston

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Message Posted: May 8, 2013 8:46:49 AM

I am still waiting for grampi to share the source of his information. No links, just what shows, what channels, who the commentator is. I will do the research to see where his information comes from.
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DoctorV
Champion Author Detroit

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Message Posted: May 8, 2013 8:37:40 AM

In grampis's world the truth is what he says it is, what he thinks it is, what he thinks it should be.
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grampi47
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: May 8, 2013 8:24:58 AM

Zoop, I believe you've lost all your marbles...your parents must have dropped you on your head one too many times as a baby...
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ZZZoop
Champion Author Virginia

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Message Posted: May 6, 2013 8:17:49 PM

>>I'd believe them before I'd believe the oil industry or gov reports...<<

Why? If "Big Oil" wields the enormous, unchecked power as you apparently believe, and the conspiracy to support BO is as vast as you claim, what's stopping BO from corrupting the media?

In other words, grampi, in your world, how do you separate truth from fiction?
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bluenvoy
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Message Posted: May 6, 2013 9:38:00 AM

Here it's one word or brand, Daily's.
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DoctorV
Champion Author Detroit

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Message Posted: May 6, 2013 9:26:40 AM

63pioneer, please explain what "relief" you want from this "socialist administration". What form would that "relief" take? Are you asking for this "socialist administration" to be more "socialist" by interfering with the rational business decisions energy companies have made for themselves?
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63pioneer
Champion Author Texas

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Message Posted: May 6, 2013 3:17:39 AM

When a retailer charges more than his usual markup over the wholesale price he paid to his supplier for the fuel because of a perceived shortage, or other "emergencies" and could extent to the wholesalers who could be marking up their price to retailers for the same reasons for the purpose of "extorting" money from the general population, who is really at their mercy & wouldn't get any relief from this socialist administration!
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