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Author Topic: Master Station List- What to do with a closed gas station that is permanently closed? Back to Topics
ejjski

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Virginia Beach

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Message Posted: Jan 31, 2014 1:32:03 AM

I have recently noted a gas station that was once open, then closed, and then became green space when the university decided to purchase the land.

On the MSL, it is already noted as "Closed-Permanently". I would like it to be deleted from the MSL because unlike other gas stations which could be reopened: either within a matter of months or a matter of years, and either with the same owner and brand or with a brand new station but same location, this place will definitely never become a gas station again, now that the university owns it.

I emailed the moderators this question and they said for "Historical" purposes they will not delete this gas station.

Honestly though, for a few cases like this, I believe that it should be deleted. What good will it do just sitting in the MSL, basically a wasted placeholder. If you were to drive past this area where this gas station was, you honestly would not ever imagine that this area was once a gas station.

Should the request that I am asking that a closed station to be deleted by the moderators from the MSL to apply to ALL gas stations listed as closed permanently? Of course not.
All I am asking is for these few cases where the area does not look like a place where a gas station once was, such as a park, that I send a request to the moderators that this station should be deleted permanently. This won't be an everyday thing, and this will be taken very seriously, with the address and latest maps provided and searchable.

Thoughts?
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TxJeans
Champion Author Tampa

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Message Posted: Feb 19, 2014 8:49:36 PM

DELETED stations shouldn't match on the FSL, but in some cases (CAPE CORAL) they apparently do -- or did as of yesterday.

MSL - Murphy Express

All three put to the FSL - (comments noted so I know which is wrong-deleted.

Also, Murphy Express not in drop down.
At the time I discovered this, ezone was posting to the deleted station with a different price than was being reported by members for the active station.

Information was provided to MODS a several days ago.
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RichWLIN
Champion Author Indiana

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Message Posted: Feb 19, 2014 9:45:20 AM

Scrapheap, thanks for the feedback. Insterestingly, the app showed the station with no prices; all fields blank.

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scoutmaster
Champion Author Pittsburgh

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Message Posted: Feb 19, 2014 8:34:06 AM

DELETED stations don't match on the FSL.

We should not be able to post prices for any station in any state of closed/deleted.
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Scrapheap
Champion Author Virginia

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Message Posted: Feb 19, 2014 7:35:00 AM

RichWLIN - The reason the Marathon was showing up on the app but not on the website is probably because the post was more than 24 hours old. The Indiana site will not show prices more than 24 hours old during the work week while the app will show prices up to 48 hours old.
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TxJeans
Champion Author Tampa

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Message Posted: Feb 19, 2014 7:11:48 AM

Personally, I think having a filter that defaults to only displaying ACTIVE stations with a check box to display all would be a nice improvement. In fact, they could have a filter so you could look for closed or deleted duplicates. I find viewing the deleted helpful in determining why stations are appearing in duplicate or not appearing when they should so I know which price is correct.

This sort of filter is used in many applications.

I found the deleted stations informative such that I always will discount a particular poster that has put the station in as a duplicate 2 times and whose prices are always wrong when seen against the real station making ALL prices by that poster suspect. He apparently has stopped posting, but I put both versions on my FSL labeling the one so I know it is the wrong one and not to use it. The station still shows MATCHED even though it is a duplicate and shows as deleted in the MSL. [It was reported to the MODS]

DELETED stations should not MATCH on the FSL!

[Edited by: TxJeans at 2/19/2014 7:16:23 AM EST]
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scoutmaster
Champion Author Pittsburgh

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Message Posted: Feb 19, 2014 5:10:55 AM

"The whole point is, we really don't need it!
We especially don't need deleted duplicates showing up in the MSL."

I agree 100% rumbleseat. If the mods want to keep a history on anything that has ever been added to the MSL that's fine but we don't need the clutter.
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rumbleseat
Champion Author Winnipeg

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Message Posted: Feb 19, 2014 1:33:55 AM

When I say people can see it, I mean it shows in the MSL. The whole point is, we really don't need it!
We especially don't need deleted duplicates showing up in the MSL.
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RichWLIN
Champion Author Indiana

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Message Posted: Feb 18, 2014 11:38:41 AM

There is a vacant Marathon station at 829 N. Ewing St. & E. 9th St. in Seymour, Indiana that does not come up in a search on the web site, but that yet this morning was still appearing in the app. This station has been closed for perhaps a year or more now.

Several months back when traveling through Seymour, I saw in the app where someone had posted prices for the closed station, probably from the sign, and thought that I should look up the station when back on the full web site. Ultimately, I forgot about it until reading this discussion.

I did a search using the web site search tool for Marathon stations in Seymour earlier today and the one that is closed did not come up in the search. Again today, the station was still showing up in the app.

Later this morning, I entered the MSL and found the station in question shown as open. I entered temporarily closed rather than permanently closed because it is unknown whether or not this station will ever reopen. As a result, the Marathon station no longer appears in the app as of a few minutes ago.

For some reason, the inactive station was not appearing in a search on the web site, but was still appearing available for input in the app? I realize that the station's MSL still indicated that it was open, but shouldn't the web site and app function the same? This discrepancy between full web site and app might be worth a moderator taking a look at as well.

RG
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PD
Moderator
Message Posted: Feb 18, 2014 10:42:37 AM

Rumbleseat- as long as the station is marked as closed, it doesn't (or shouldn't) show up in price listings.

As for the marker, it appears with an "X" to note the station is closed.

I'll link a moderator to this thread to look into this matter.
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TxJeans
Champion Author Tampa

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Message Posted: Feb 18, 2014 7:32:05 AM

I can see where the data needs to be on the GBO side. On the user side, those stations marked as permanently closed or deleted should be blocked from posting. I reported recently a poster in Cape Coral posting to Murphy Express.
1 - Murphy Express not in drop down.
2 - Both when added to the FSL show as MATCHED.
3 - Only one currently shows prices (before showed 2 posters and 2 different prices).
4 - MSL shows one live and 2 deleted Murphy Express at that address:520 Pine Island Rd, North Fort Myers. Both deleted stations were from the poster posting wrong prices and both had the AVE missing from the X-road.

I agree about two sections - and the closed are not available for posting - at least for dups and permanently closed.

[Edited by: TxJeans at 2/18/2014 7:32:18 AM EST]
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scoutmaster
Champion Author Pittsburgh

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Message Posted: Feb 18, 2014 6:47:50 AM

I agree, PD, but why is it necessary to have a marker on the map for it? Couldn't it be listed in the MSL and not have the marker on the map?

How about this - the MSL has two sections - open and closed. Open would be those station listed as open and closed would be those stations in any state of closed or deleted.

[Edited by: scoutmaster at 2/18/2014 6:46:59 AM EST]
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rumbleseat
Champion Author Winnipeg

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Message Posted: Feb 18, 2014 1:10:27 AM

"I don't see a real reason to completely wipe the data."
But why should we have to see the listings for stations that aren't there anymore?
And even more pressing why should we have to see the listings for stations that were deleted as duplicates? Of what possible historical use can data be for duplicate stations, especially if they are deleted within a day or so of being created?
The problem is, if we can still see it, people can still post to it, deleted or not.

[Edited by: rumbleseat at 2/18/2014 1:12:33 AM EST]
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PD
Moderator
Message Posted: Feb 17, 2014 9:59:56 PM

For historical purposes, it's good to know how many stations have closed year after year. I don't see a real reason to completely wipe the data.
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Zimcity
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Feb 3, 2014 11:44:28 AM

"Should the old station record be edited for brand and features, or should the old station be closed out and a new MSL entry created for the new brand at the same address? Is the MSL address-centric or brand-centric?"

Without any guidance I have done what makes logical sense, and in my opinion MSL listings are meant to be address (and/or lat/long) based. I have followed the practice of changing the existing MSL id in the case of brand changes, REGARDLESS of whether it is only new signage, or in the more rare case of a station being torn down and replaced by a new station.
I have also moved a Holiday station across a US Hwy, when one station relocated.
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scoutmaster
Champion Author Pittsburgh

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Message Posted: Feb 3, 2014 6:53:24 AM

Well here is one more thing to consider - Not being able to enter prices for a station in any form of closed or deleted. Currently, this can happen.
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TxJeans
Champion Author Tampa

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Message Posted: Feb 3, 2014 6:52:49 AM

Rumbleseat -(to go further from GGG's post) Stations change ownership w/out changing brand, or can change brand with or without changing ownership. I would guess keeping the history on the address (local influences on pricing) would make sense with the data points showing approximately when the brand changed. Even with a new station being built at that address, there might be reason for tracking of the prices by local to use the same record with the time stamps of when closed and when opened. But, they have the address as a data point as well if new records are created. All in all, it depends on the algorithms that GBO uses in their data mining.

That said, it would be good to have guidance written in FAQs and maybe in a pop-up or on the edit page to make sure the same approach is used across the system.
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rumbleseat
Champion Author Winnipeg

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Message Posted: Feb 3, 2014 2:18:14 AM

If a franchise holder for Esso, for instance, changes to Shell, I have no problem with an edit of the MSL, I think most of us have done that.
If the franchise is given up, and the station demolished, and new people build a new station, that is not the same station, or the same people, and there should be no continuity.
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GoGoGoodyear
Champion Author Los Angeles

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Message Posted: Feb 3, 2014 1:49:55 AM


Rumbleseat brings up a good point about gas stations changing brands and ownership. In the example an Exxon station was demolished and a 7-Eleven station replaced it at the same location. Stations changing brands is a common occurence. There is no guidance I'm aware of on handling this in the MSL.

Should the old station record be edited for brand and features, or should the old station be closed out and a new MSL entry created for the new brand at the same address? Is the MSL address-centric or brand-centric?

It's been my observation with stations in my area that upon a brand change, the existing MSL record is edited, and that is what I have followed when a station in my area changes brands and reopens.

The edit history remains to document the changes, so a historical price report for that address could be cross-ref'd to the edit history to assign the right brand to the different portions of the price history.
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rumbleseat
Champion Author Winnipeg

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Message Posted: Feb 1, 2014 3:23:27 PM

"There is one example of an Exxon gas station that closed almost 12 years ago, vacant lot still remained, and now they're building a new 7-Eleven gas station at the same spot."

That wouldn't be a very good reason to have kept that Exxon on the list had we had it 12 years ago.
The 7-Eleven is a totally new entity, as a matter of fact, if the 7-Eleven was built immediately after the Exxon was razed it would STILL be a totally new entity, and changing the status and name in the MSL would be giving a 7-Eleven the id number, therefor the price records, of the Exxon.
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GoGoGoodyear
Champion Author Los Angeles

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Message Posted: Feb 1, 2014 8:41:52 AM

Agreed that having the option to filter closed stations from being displayed in the MSL would be a convenience, but the station data should remain in the MSL for reference by the GB analysts and so the history of price changes will not be orphaned from it's associated station details.

Suggestion for the new feature posted here in the SAGBI forum.


[Edited by: GoGoGoodyear at 2/1/2014 8:42:48 AM EST]
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TxJeans
Champion Author Tampa

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Message Posted: Feb 1, 2014 8:10:54 AM

The solution you are asking for would presumably require coding to filter the display of the stations in the MSL display for reasons provided by GBO and further clarified by Bytedoctor (integrity of their database that is used beyond just this site for folks to find lower priced gas).

Though I agree a filtering / hiding from view on the site of stations flagged as permanently permanently closed, or other flags would be nice.

But, for just the permanently closed and re-purposed are so few that I suspect they would not implement such filtering. So, if they were to do it, I think the best approach would be to have them filtered after a period of time from the date of flagging. Possibly different time frames for permanently closed and re-purposed permanently closed and deleted duplicates, etc.

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ejjski
Champion Author Virginia Beach

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Message Posted: Feb 1, 2014 2:02:00 AM

I'll explain some more:

If the structure and the land layout of the "closed-permanently" station still exists, then it should remain on the MSL as "closed-permanently", as a new station could be built there. There is one example of an Exxon gas station that closed almost 12 years ago, vacant lot still remained, and now they're building a new 7-Eleven gas station at the same spot.

HOWEVER, if the station has not only been torn down, but replaced with a well manicured park (publicly or privately owned), any sort of building, new road, etc.- basically anything done to the property that gives the notion that when you come back to that area to visit later you would've never thought there was once a gas station there at that location a long time ago- then it should be removed from the MSL, after of course a GasBuddy member emails the moderators and provides good details of the closed gas station's complete disappearance from view or map, such as Google (Maps, Satellite, Earth, StreetView), photographs, rezoning permits, and/or perhaps news articles (like my earlier example of the university buying the property and creating green space).

As for the duplicates that we requested that they be deleted, they definitely need to be deleted once and for all.
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Gas_Buddy
Champion Author Maryland

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Message Posted: Jan 31, 2014 9:01:18 PM

Permanently closed is somewhat different than "completely removed". If the physical structure of the station remains in place and it's "permanently closed", that's different than if the physical structure is razed and the underground tanks removed.

Unless it's for nostalgia by members, there's no reason Gas Buddy cannot or should not institutionally keep the information and remove a "razed station" from the Master Station List (asking the "removing member" to confirm the deletion so that it's not removed "by mistake"). Excepting (again) for nostalgia, keeping a razed station on the Master Station List doesn't serve the membership. At worse, even if a station was erroneously removed, members can re-list the station on the Master Station List while, at the same time, Gas Buddy will have institutional information as to who the "offending" (bad choice of a word) member is who removed the station.

That said, I don't see any reason that why "false" and/or "duplicate" stations need to be listed on the Master Station List. Again, while it might serve Gas Buddy for organizational/historical reasons, it doesn't serve the membership. I can't see a reason why any of us might want to know that a non-existent gas station was deleted years ago. It makes sense to clean up the list and make it as simplistically useful as possible.
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rumbleseat
Champion Author Winnipeg

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Message Posted: Jan 31, 2014 8:10:32 PM

"Maybe an option to filter out closed stations would be the better solution."

If the number of times over many years we have asked for the ability to filter out JFF from our "topics I have posted on " searches is an indication, I would imagine this request would be given the same priority - in other words, none. Unfortunately.
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rumbleseat
Champion Author Winnipeg

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Message Posted: Jan 31, 2014 7:57:11 PM

Well, here is something stupid that should allow an immediate total deletion from the list. A new station opened up. One person created an MSL listing putting it in East St Paul (wrong). Another person created an MSL listing putting it in Winnipeg NE (correct). I deleted the wrong one, but it still sits there, for no reason, it is new, there might be one day of posting recorded for it, but because it was created in the wrong area, the data is useless anyway.

Here's another thing.
Let's say you have 3 Exxoshell stations, you delete one, it sits there, you delete the 2nd, they both still sit there, but when all 3 close, they all disappear when you delete the 3rd one. Search for Pioneer stations in Winnipeg, they aren't in the list any more, they were gone immediately I deleted the last one to close.
Kind of lays waste to the need to keep the stations on the list for historical records.

"doesn't meant that there won't be a gas station built there a year from now"
Not if they have built a dentist office, or a credit union, or a 7-Eleven, or a Hydro office, or a police station, or a park, or an insurance office, or ANYTHING else.
As a matter of fact, for environmental reasons, many lots where stations where razed will NEVER get a permit for another station, unless the station was razed for the purpose of building a newer, more modern station, perhaps a new store and islands in place of a service garage.
Keeping a listing open for years because somebody MIGHT build a station some day is just silly.
There is no reason they can't keep the data but hide the listings. They hide active members, why can't they hide non-existent stations when they can hide non-existent brands?
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Scrapheap
Champion Author Virginia

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Message Posted: Jan 31, 2014 10:27:10 AM

I agree with TxJeans that a good solution would be to remove from our ability to view a station marked as permanently closed after some amount of time like a year. This would accomodate Byte_Doctor's point and still allow us to reverse the station status if someone mistakenly changed its status to closed permanently.
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Zimcity
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Jan 31, 2014 9:19:36 AM

As byte doctor said, there are reasons to keep the station's record intact in the MSL. However, there is little reason to display closed-Permanently stations in the MSL listings.

Maybe an option to filter out closed stations would be the better solution.
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bytebug
Champion Author Orange County

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Message Posted: Jan 31, 2014 8:40:09 AM

Just because a station has been razed and is now just an empty lot doesn't meant that there won't be a gas station built there a year from now. I suggest that if the "clutter" in the MSL bothers you, to just not open the MSL.
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TxJeans
Champion Author Tampa

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Message Posted: Jan 31, 2014 7:13:35 AM

Personally, I don't care that much either way. However what about all the duplicates? And, the deleted-Abuse/Fake?, and deleted-other, etc? There seems to be a lot more of those. There doesn't seem like there would be enough that are closed permanently to worry about.

From the other viewpoint of not deleting them, maybe you travel to a certain area every year or so and have learned a certain station always seems to be in the leader pack for low prices and becomes your favorite when you visit. You go back and it is gone. You can see in the history that it was permanently closed and when marked as such. And Bytedoctor is correct about why to leave them IN the database.

Maybe permanently closed stations could be kept in the database and masked from view once it is >1 year old and duplicates masked from view after 6months to a year? That way they have the data for tracking, but it de-clutters the list.

In the end, it is the GBOs data to do with what they wish and they have stated their position.


[Edited by: TxJeans at 1/31/2014 7:14:48 AM EST]
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Byte_Doctor
Champion Author Akron

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Message Posted: Jan 31, 2014 7:11:52 AM

In my opinion, stations should never be deleted, whether "closed permanently" or razed to the ground as this one was. And here's why - almost certainly the back-end database was set up to have each price associated with a unique station record. Doing so is standard relational database practice. Removing that station record would orphan the associated price records and would put the data integrity at risk.

That data is important for historical purposes - price trends and averages for an area over time, etc. Without the station record, the ability to extract meaningful data is compromised.

In the relational database world, you rarely want to delete data and this is exactly the sort of data you need to preserve.
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scoutmaster
Champion Author Pittsburgh

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Message Posted: Jan 31, 2014 6:18:30 AM

I like this idea and I do think this should apply to all permanently closed station on the MSL. If a new one opens in the same spot, it can be readded.
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