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Author Topic: Hydrogen retro fits for todays cars and trucks. Back to Topics
knutzAL

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Alabama

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Message Posted: Nov 30, 2012 10:58:28 AM

Looking for input as to the validity and real facts on the retro fit hydrogen assist kits available for todays cars and trucks. They work on regular and desiel fuel engines and seem to be affordable. After looking at a couple of suppliers and there offerings I think I might try one. What about you?
REPLIES (newest first) Post a Reply
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HotRod10
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Message Posted: May 28, 2013 12:08:50 PM

Surprised that it doesn't produce better mileage? Not at all. The laws of physics and thermodynamics survive another day.
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Shockjock1961
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: May 25, 2013 10:08:57 AM

Are you surprised?
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HotRod10
Champion Author Wyoming

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Message Posted: May 24, 2013 5:47:41 PM

No report back from knutzAL. My bet is that he's too embarrassed to update us on his "savings".
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HotRod10
Champion Author Wyoming

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Message Posted: Mar 25, 2013 1:28:32 PM

"hotrod...Me thinks you have some knowledge in this area!"

I'm no automotive expert, I just have a basic understanding of an ICE and how an ECM works. I also have a fairly solid understanding of basic physics, which I find helps me solve a wide variety of problems and see through a lot of BS.
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knutzAL
Champion Author Alabama

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Message Posted: Mar 19, 2013 11:36:25 AM

oilpan.....will let you know as soon as it arrives
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oilpan4
Champion Author Virginia

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Message Posted: Mar 19, 2013 1:43:40 AM

"we have a new sensor, diode based, on the way that has solved the issue with another installer in MO".

What sensor is that?
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knutzAL
Champion Author Alabama

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Message Posted: Mar 18, 2013 4:13:49 PM

hotrod....exactly. we have a new sensor, diode based, on the way that has solved the issue with another installer in MO. Will let you know. Me thinks you have some knowledge in this area!
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knutzAL
Champion Author Alabama

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Message Posted: Mar 18, 2013 4:12:00 PM

WOOOOOO there Houk! Hope it was an accident that your post went up about six times. Did'nt mean to stir ya up sir!
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Houckster
Champion Author Atlanta

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Message Posted: Mar 15, 2013 10:00:06 PM

KNUTZAL writes: Houkster . .... . . . . . . . . . I don't mean to trounce on your blame game here, but Barney Frank and Chris Dodd ram rodded this major yuck-up via manipulating the FDIC rules, the guidlines used by Freddie and Fannie, and just plain old buying voters at tax payer expense. There was no Republican support for this as it was not a congressional issue until it started blowing up in Frank and Dodd's faces. For once I wish you dems/libs would take responsiblity for not knowing everything, just having a difference of opinion!
_____
It was not I that started the blame game and you definitely don't know the whole story. That part of just listening to the Hard Right.
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Houckster
Champion Author Atlanta

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Message Posted: Mar 15, 2013 9:59:50 PM

KNUTZAL writes: Houkster . .... . . . . . . . . . I don't mean to trounce on your blame game here, but Barney Frank and Chris Dodd ram rodded this major yuck-up via manipulating the FDIC rules, the guidlines used by Freddie and Fannie, and just plain old buying voters at tax payer expense. There was no Republican support for this as it was not a congressional issue until it started blowing up in Frank and Dodd's faces. For once I wish you dems/libs would take responsiblity for not knowing everything, just having a difference of opinion!
_____
It was not I that started the blame game and you definitely don't know the whole story. That part of just listening to the Hard Right.
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HotRod10
Champion Author Wyoming

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Message Posted: Mar 15, 2013 7:27:14 PM

"you definitely don't know the whole story."Ok then, elighten us, what Republicans voted for any legislation that made it easier for unqualified people to get mortgages or were involved with rewriting the mortgage loan rules?
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Houckster
Champion Author Atlanta

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Message Posted: Mar 15, 2013 5:03:35 PM

KNUTZAL writes: Houkster . .... . . . . . . . . . I don't mean to trounce on your blame game here, but Barney Frank and Chris Dodd ram rodded this major yuck-up via manipulating the FDIC rules, the guidlines used by Freddie and Fannie, and just plain old buying voters at tax payer expense. There was no Republican support for this as it was not a congressional issue until it started blowing up in Frank and Dodd's faces. For once I wish you dems/libs would take responsiblity for not knowing everything, just having a difference of opinion!
_____
It was not I that started the blame game and you definitely don't know the whole story. That part of just listening to the Hard Right.
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Houckster
Champion Author Atlanta

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Message Posted: Mar 15, 2013 3:23:02 PM

KNUTZAL writes: Houkster . .... . . . . . . . . . I don't mean to trounce on your blame game here, but Barney Frank and Chris Dodd ram rodded this major yuck-up via manipulating the FDIC rules, the guidlines used by Freddie and Fannie, and just plain old buying voters at tax payer expense. There was no Republican support for this as it was not a congressional issue until it started blowing up in Frank and Dodd's faces. For once I wish you dems/libs would take responsiblity for not knowing everything, just having a difference of opinion!
_____
It was not I that started the blame game and you definitely don't know the whole story. That part of just listening to the Hard Right.
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HotRod10
Champion Author Wyoming

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Message Posted: Mar 15, 2013 12:28:44 PM

Back to the subject - "the chips are required due to the changes in inflow of a cleaner burning air and the outflow of less CO2, if I have that right."

Well, you've been misinformed. If the Hydrogen is added before the intake airflow sensor, there may be a density change that would change the MAF or MAP sensor readings. However, only Oxygen is measured in the exhaust gases, not CO2 or anything else. The chip change is required because when the Hydrogen is added, the engine is getting more fuel and less oxygen than what the ECM reads.
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knutzAL
Champion Author Alabama

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Message Posted: Mar 15, 2013 11:27:02 AM

Houkster . .... . . . . . . . . . I don't mean to trounce on your blame game here, but Barney Frank and Chris Dodd ram rodded this major yuck-up via manipulating the FDIC rules, the guidlines used by Freddie and Fannie, and just plain old buying voters at tax payer expense. There was no Republican support for this as it was not a congressional issue until it started blowing up in Frank and Dodd's faces. For once I wish you dems/libs would take responsiblity for not knowing everything, just having a difference of opinion!
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Houckster
Champion Author Atlanta

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Message Posted: Mar 15, 2013 10:59:12 AM

HEMOND writes: Boy have you got that right. The reason we are in the collapsed housing market today is the ridiculous mortgage products cooked up due to Democratic meddling in housing.
______
There was a lot of Republican support for this measure as well. To blame the Democrats for this debacle is simple more Hard Right propaganda.

The reality is that there is blame on both sides of the aisle.
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Hemond
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Message Posted: Mar 14, 2013 7:39:53 PM

::::"the federal government meddling in who qualified for loans"
:::

Boy have you got that right. The reason we are in the collapsed housing market today is the ridiculous mortgage products cooked up due to Democratic meddling in housing .

My first speculation house in Florida was sold to a couple who didn't even make the first payment. They defaulted on the first payment. Yet they qualified under federal mortgage guidelines and the bank was required to offer them a mortgage due to federal guidelines.

I recall talking to the owner's wife after she moved in. They had no concept that one must make a monthly payment for 30 years. The wife specifically told me, 'thats silly", "I'm not paying that"

Well they got a rude awakening when they got tossed out on the street.

Yet according to Federal mortgage guidelines they were top notch credit candidates. The best thing is for the banks to go back to lending standards in existence before the Democrats meddled with the mortgage market. The US runs best when big business is in command and when the liberal progressive nonsense economic theories are neutralized.
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oilpan4
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Message Posted: Mar 14, 2013 4:26:34 PM

"the federal government meddling in who qualified for loans"

This all started in the late 1990s when some thought that every one should own a home.
First with adjustable rate morgages. A $100,000 loan with an adjustable rate structured in a way that assumes the home owner will make more money in the future and be able to afford a higher payment, how could anything go wrong there?

Some of those adjustable rate morgages had no requirement for the applicant to provide a social security number or proof of income.
What could possibly go wrong?

Then they approve millions of these sub prime loans.
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HotRod10
Champion Author Wyoming

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Message Posted: Mar 14, 2013 4:02:11 PM

"The government, when it works properly, serves as an umpire to keep business activity within the foul lines."

If the government would stick to the role of umpire or referee, that would be fine. When they get in the middle of the game, take the ball, and pass it to someone else or run for the goal, all while supposedly refereeing the game, it just makes a big mess and nobody wants to play. The umpire has been bought with bribes, but a lot of people don't seem to care.
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HotRod10
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Message Posted: Mar 14, 2013 3:51:57 PM

"The market didn't steer people toward better solutions when they were buying houses they couldn't afford. Uncontrolled capitalism can cause immense damage."

That wasn't capitalism or the free market, that was all the federal government meddling in who qualified for loans through Fannie and Freddie. Left to the market, those people would never have gotten loans because their ability to pay them back was at least questionable, if not completely laughable.

"Uncontrolled capitalism" is what has provided the world with almost all of the innovations in the modern world. Real solutions to improving efficiency will be invented quicker if government will just stay out of it and let "greed" drive innovation.
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Houckster
Champion Author Atlanta

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Message Posted: Mar 14, 2013 1:29:19 PM

OILFAN writes: If the politicians would just stay out of it, the market (the price) would steer people towards the better solutions.
_____
Too simplistic. The market didn't steer people toward better solutions when they were buying houses they couldn't afford. Uncontrolled capitalism can cause immense damage. The goal of business is to make money, not to steer people toward better solutions unless they can make money doing it.

Never underestimate the capacity of people to rationalize how they make their profit. The government, when it works properly, serves as an umpire to keep business activity within the foul lines.

The biggest financial disasters we've had have come at times when the government wasn't doing its job. When the cat's away, the mice will play.
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knutzAL
Champion Author Alabama

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Message Posted: Mar 14, 2013 11:22:26 AM

oiler fan.........you got that right sir!
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OilerFan
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Message Posted: Mar 13, 2013 1:04:05 PM

If the politicians would just stay out of it, the market (the price) would steer people towards the better solutions.
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oilpan4
Champion Author Virginia

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Message Posted: Mar 13, 2013 11:56:20 AM

"Ironic isn't it, that the settings to meet California's requirements result in poorer mileage"?

No, whats ironic is when liberals cause more problems or make the situation worse after they declare that they have "fixed" something.
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HotRod10
Champion Author Wyoming

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Message Posted: Mar 13, 2013 10:05:38 AM

"Yes the 1992 "lean burn" civic that was 49 state legal got nearly 10% better combined city/highway EPA fuel milage than the 1992 non lean burn california legal civic."

Ironic isn't it, that the settings to meet California's requirements result in poorer mileage?
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oilpan4
Champion Author Virginia

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Message Posted: Mar 12, 2013 11:57:34 PM

" in the NASA test, did the hydrogen increase the efficiency of the combustion of the gasoline by the 3% or just the overall combustion cycle? In other words, did it produce more output than the gasoline or hydrogen would have produced sEPArately"?

Hydrogen by its self is a very poor piston engine fuel.
Using some hydrogen BTUs to replace gasoline BTUs kept the BTUs going into the enging the same but it increased work out put by 3%

Now how can these little hydrogen generators produce 10% or 20% increases in fuel economy when NASA can only get 3%.
What do these fly by night HHO generator builders know that NASA doesn't?

"A big part of making the system work and modern engines adapt to the change in intake and exhaust gases is "tricking the O2 sensors. Here we are having a couple of issues. Using a Velo chip to send normal readings, so extra gasoline is not dumped into the carburation"

That makes no sense what so ever. You have no reason to "trick the oxygen sensor" if you are trying to improve fuel economy.
The Velo chips sounds like an oxygen sensor signal simulator, these things are a very bad idea.

" you can get better mileage by just programming it for a lean mixture, and skip everything else."

Yes the 1992 "lean burn" civic that was 49 state legal got nearly 10% better combined city/highway EPA fuel milage than the 1992 non lean burn california legal civic.
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knutzAL
Champion Author Alabama

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Message Posted: Mar 12, 2013 4:18:49 PM

hotrod.......from what I can gather chips will only give you @ 3 - 5% if what I'm learning is right. I do think that some of the powere boost is certainly from the chip along with the hydrogen. Also the chips are required due to the changes in inflow of a cleaner burning air and the outflow of less CO2, if I have that right.

[Edited by: knutzAL at 3/12/2013 4:20:03 PM EST]
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HotRod10
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Message Posted: Mar 12, 2013 4:16:56 PM

"A big part of making the system work and modern engines adapt to the change in intake and exhaust gases is 'tricking the O2 sensors.' Here we are having a couple of issues. Using a Velo chip to send normal readings, so extra gasoline is not dumped into the carburation, has been a little tricky."

If you are going through the trouble and expense to "chip" it, you can get better mileage by just programming it for a lean mixture, and skip everything else.
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Shockjock1961
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Message Posted: Mar 12, 2013 1:20:23 PM

nuts all... says it all...
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knutzAL
Champion Author Alabama

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Message Posted: Mar 12, 2013 12:27:01 PM

Well.....first off the system works. It is producing hydrogen, delivering it into the air intake system, and introducing it into the fuel at combustion. Lots more power at all levels of RPM's.
Not so fast folks! A big part of making the system work and modern engines adapt to the change in intake and exhaust gases is "tricking the O2 sensors. Here we are having a couple of issues. Using a Velo chip to send normal readings, so extra gasoline is not dumped into the carburation, has been a little tricky. This year, 2002, Nisan used a very simple setup. And this seems to be the issue as the chip is trying to make it complicated.
Bottom line is that I am unhappy to report any change in effceincy/milage. The new found power probably resulting from the chip is nice but not what we are looking for.
Still in all we are still working on it and will get there. More as it becomes available. Still believe hydrogen on demand is the way to go. When the system is working my payback will be less than 12 months and with the 100% tax credit its a no brainier.
Would anyone like to know about the results of other installs that have been done at this shop and that are getting excellent results?
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HotRod10
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Message Posted: Mar 11, 2013 9:53:36 AM

oilpan4, in the NASA test, did the hydrogen increase the efficiency of the combustion of the gasoline by the 3% or just the overall combustion cycle? In other words, did it produce more output than the gasoline or hydrogen would have produced separately?
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ricebike
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Message Posted: Mar 10, 2013 12:02:01 AM

scam for that HHO conversions at the moment
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oilpan4
Champion Author Virginia

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Message Posted: Mar 9, 2013 6:31:52 PM

"You just don't understand how it works. Adding hydrogen to combustion increases efficiency"

You are correct. Adding hydrogen does increase fuel economy. NASA published a paper on a test they did. Only problem is the NASA test used hundreds of times more hydrogen than one of those little generators can produce and the hydrogen came from a bottle. It did not require power from the engine to produce the gas.
The thing is just about any flammable gas that is in a super heated gas state at room temperature will increase the fuel economy of a gasoline engine by up to 3% when fed into the engine along with air.
So there is nothing special about hydrogen.
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HotRod10
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Message Posted: Mar 8, 2013 10:03:20 AM

"You just don't understand how it works. Adding hydrogen to combustion increases efficiency."

I'd like to see an explanation of how adding hydrogen increases efficiency in a way that a proper tune-up would not. If it's not just some fancy sounding pile of manure, I'm sure I could understand it; I did get an "A" in thermodynamics. I don't believe adding a second combustible material to the mixture in the cylinder increases the efficiency of the first. It may, and probably does, increase power output for a moment or two until the hydrogen is depleted, but that's a separate issue from efficiency or mileage.

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oochulshin
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Message Posted: Mar 7, 2013 4:48:40 PM

@HotRod10 No, it does not violate the laws of Thermodynamic. You just don't understand how it works. Adding hydrogen to combustion increases efficiency. Technically you can just buy a hydrogen separately but it wouldn't be cost efficient. So the idea was to generate hydrogen on the go. Thus this system. Personally, I wouldn't buy the kit because it wouldn't save you enough gas money to compensate for the money you spent on the kit for a long long time. But if you can build the kit yourself to save money, maybe.
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lyanMI
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Message Posted: Mar 7, 2013 1:19:50 PM

Like to test it on my current car if price of kit is rite.
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Dennis783
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Message Posted: Mar 7, 2013 7:41:09 AM

not for me, I will wait and see which alternate we settle on as a country
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oilpan4
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Message Posted: Mar 6, 2013 2:00:38 PM

"The system is taking electrical power generated by the engine through the alternator"

Most people think that alternator load does not effect fuel economy.
Well that is incorrect.
On paper every 100 watts of alternator load cost my suburban about 0.1MPG on little economy cars, this will be much higher.
The theory was confirmed with numerous head lights on/off tests at 55mph over on the ecomodder forum, using small cars equipped with a scangauge or the like.


[Edited by: oilpan4 at 3/6/2013 2:02:08 PM EST]
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HotRod10
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Message Posted: Mar 6, 2013 11:00:34 AM

No matter how many personal testimonies I hear, if it violates the laws of physics, (specifically the 2nd law of thermodynamics), then I'm not going to believe it. If that make me closed-minded, I guess I am.

The system is taking electrical power generated by the engine through the alternator, to split water into Hydrogen and Oxygen. In the cylinder, combustion recombines the Hydrogen and Oxygen into water vapor. It starts as water and ends as water vapor, therefore there is no net energy change (except for the energy input to vaporize the water). If the conversion processes were 100% efficient, it would have no effect on mileage, but since there is no such thing, some energy is always "lost" in the form of heat. You may see a boost in horsepower for short periods of time when it is using more Hydrogen than it's producing. All other factors being equal (which they never are) the net effect on mileage will always be negative.
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oilpan4
Champion Author Virginia

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Message Posted: Mar 5, 2013 11:21:11 PM

So the auto manufacturers with thousands of engineers, and billions of dollars to spend on improving fuel economy while always trying to reduce emissions missed this?

Now whats more likely:
A mechanical engineer totally missing out on a way to improve vehicle fuel milage by 30% or some mythical double digit percentage number.
Or
An elderly person getting scammed?
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knutzAL
Champion Author Alabama

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Message Posted: Mar 5, 2013 8:21:07 PM

shock....not yet sir and I will only report the truth, facts that can be checked, and what I know to be true. too much of the other and I have neither the time or the patience for it.
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Shockjock1961
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Mar 5, 2013 10:03:50 AM

It's not "hokey" it's hokum, pure hokum...
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knutzAL
Champion Author Alabama

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Message Posted: Mar 5, 2013 9:41:39 AM

pat & oil as you seem to be the only open minded folks here how about "buddy request" and I will follow-up directly. Thanks JD
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knutzAL
Champion Author Alabama

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Message Posted: Mar 5, 2013 9:39:02 AM

Nothing personal shocky but its not hokum. I pertered these folks for the last three months. Seen a number of installs and spoken to some owners afterwards to see what there reaction and rexults have been. Real.
.
.
And at 57 I have been around the block three times talked to everybody once. If it looks like a duck, smell like a duck, taste like a duck, usually my thinking is , its a duck. So believe me when I say this is not hokey pokey. I will only report what my results are, what I know to be true, and other wise offer information that I have the proof on.
.
.
Believe me if it turns out to be hokey I will tell all and vis-versa. Cause truth of the matter I can sure stand to save 30% or better on what I spend on gasoline.
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Shockjock1961
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Message Posted: Mar 5, 2013 9:04:44 AM

Pure Hokum....
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OilerFan
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Message Posted: Mar 5, 2013 7:54:05 AM

I like the idea for my current vehicles.
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knutzAL
Champion Author Alabama

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Message Posted: Mar 4, 2013 7:50:52 PM

Quick note: the on demand fuel cell operats on water with a phosphate activator, for higher amperage, so we added some alcohol to prevent freezing over the weekend to the holding tank. After checking milage this morning and discovering little if any change I stopped back by the shop.
.
We drained about 2/3's of the supply water out and added back in straight distilled water, which is called for. Basically reduced significantly the amount of alcohol while keeping the freezing point where it needs to be.
.
Before this we were only running about 10-14 amps which is not enough to have an impact on milage. But after this correction we are running about 20-22 amps at operating temparuture. Already feel the difference and will report milage impact probably Wednesday when I next fill-up.
.
Point of reference: I knew going into this that each vehicle has its own sweet spot and that a bit of adjustment would be expected, which it has. For a 50 year old technology, that is hydrogen as a fuel, there will still be some kinks to work out. However, I have personally witnessed good to great results from this system from other folks and expect to be one.
.
More soon.......

[Edited by: knutzAL at 3/4/2013 7:53:32 PM EST]
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knutzAL
Champion Author Alabama

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Message Posted: Mar 1, 2013 8:27:52 PM

Unit finally installed Wednesday afternoon. Only have 155 miles on a fill up so far so not much on milage to report. But, from a power and performance point its lots better. As you will see from my pictures I have 358 thousand some odd miles and have been loosing a little power. After install the truck is running much better, climbing a couple of hills that have been requiring down shifting, and in general in third gear at @3000 rpm's, well it's way better by far.
.
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HOTROD.........as for the alternator, I asked about that and we are currently pulling 18 amps. Now that will increase as we tune and find the trucks "sweet spot" but should not be an issue. If it is I will report back that it is.
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HotRod10
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Message Posted: Feb 20, 2013 10:56:04 AM

Be prepared to replace your alternator shortly. It won't last long running at 1/3 or more of its rated capacity all the time.
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knutzAL
Champion Author Alabama

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Message Posted: Feb 19, 2013 8:34:27 PM

chip and cell finally came in today. decided between two types. One a black box/wet system that seems to operate good but at a lower amperage vs the clear/dry cell which operates at about 22-24 amps. amps translating into hydrogen injected into air intake: ie more power and less gas required. more to come upon install and milage/power results.
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